well- or ill-dignified?

Zephyros

Suppose an old unknown manuscript would surface with the initials A.C. upon it, stating that the ED's are not about the importance of a card, but about it's meaning, you would likely say to yourself that you knew there was something lacking. Liber T was published still before the 20th century, and maybe Crowley would have revised it in his later years if he had paid attention to it.

Maybe, maybe not. In any case nothing exists in a vacuum, and the EDs don't stand by themselves but as a part of a greater system. I assume the rules regarding them weren't decided upon arbitrarily, but due to other esoteric considerations. Apart from the common sense adage that fire and water don't mix, esoterically fire is active, pure force, while water is its inhibiting counterpart, diametrically opposed. I do agree with you that the examples given by both Mathers and Crowley are unclear, but I find the basic rules easier to understand and emulate. If such a manuscript were to be unearthed, it actually wouldn't change much, and this goes back to the GD's conception of Tarot and divination as a whole, in which the divinatory aspect was separate from the deck itself and significance. The OOTK isn't your typical divination, it is a lengthy meditative process to which adepts probably supplemented certain rituals, adorations (such as to HRU), etc. and it doesn't go well with the "does he like me" kind of questions. But I'm guessing that meditation on the cards, their meanings and interconnections was what it was mostly about. Meditate on Tarot and you discover the spiritual mechanics of the universe; practice magick and you use the mechanics to your advantage.

I am a little bit at a loss, because your attitude differs considerably with the respondents to my thread http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=204059. But as I spent so much time to get this ED thing right, while trusting on an authority, I understand your point.
...
This was just what I wanted to make clear. The part is not the same part when you isolate it, because it is part+interconnections.

Well, one needn't go to either extremes. To me the occult is a language through which any idea can be expressed. Both the Thoth and the RWS speak the same language but say very different things with it. Don't forget that this is what the GD itself did; theories were proposed, some were found to work and became canon, some didn't and were discarded. Crowley did the same thing. But then, if the EDs give you such a hard time, don't use them.
 

yogiman

But then, if the EDs give you such a hard time, don't use them.

I want to read with a non-positional thread, because some experts say that is much better. It is not that the ED's give me a hard time in itself, but that I want it to do it conform golden dawn practise, and if not possible then adapt it. The biggest problem is that I get very little feedback here.
 

Richard

I want to read with a non-positional thread, because some experts say that is much better. It is not that the ED's give me a hard time in itself, but that I want it to do it conform golden dawn practise, and if not possible then adapt it. The biggest problem is that I get very little feedback here.
Perhaps not many people use ED. Personally I don't believe in it. Fire (projective) and water (receptive) don't exactly neutralize one another. Physically they make energy in the form of steam. Alchemically they make the philosophers stone. Biologically they make babies. The influence of fire and water together is transformed but by no means eliminated.

Temperance (the synthesis of opposites) is one of the most potent cards in the deck. It is the key to personal transformation from egocentricity to true self-consciousness.
 

yogiman

This comes back again to the thread that I started at -talking tarot-: to what degree does the tarot allow us to make our own rules? Is the rule of counting and pairing the cards in line with some cosmic principle, or is it an agreement made with the subconcious? I think both.ED's are based on the LOGICAL interactions of the elements. On the other hand, the golden dawn pairs cards from the ends of the horseshoe, and Crowley pairs them from the significator. Then, how much can we rely on those rules? What I concluded from the elaborate discussion is that the quintessence of the tarot is the Fool, and when we apply rules we should be adaptive and open for change. If positional agreements are antagonistic to tarot, then the 7 of swords would characterize the vast majority of tarotists, and 7 of disks most of the professional tarot readers. But rules clearly have their restriction, and the yes/no spread is an extreme example.

Now what confuses me, is that the golden dawn didn't look for a way to decide whether a card is well- or ill-dignified, though they did have a method to determine the validity of the reading by means of the significator.

?
 

Zephyros

Since the other thread about Lust and this one seem to be going on parallel lines, I'll answer both here. In the end, I get the feeling you're looking for an authority who will tell you if something is the real deal. I doubt you'll find that, here or elsewhere.

Modern Tarot readers tend to favor results above all else, whether a reading is correct or not. Meditation on Kabbalistic ideas, elemental imbalances and esoteric minutiae are left to a niche, and a very small one at that. The vast, overwhelming majority of readers use no system at all and rely solely on their own "intuition," which to me is free association. Ironically it was a certain GD alumnus who himself deplored this method of reading, yet singlehandedly ushered it into the mainstream, to the extent that trying to be faithful to his own methods is seen as "alternative." I am of course speaking of A.E. Waite.

The EDs are one reading method among many, and are probably not divinely inspired, not more correct than any other, and neither Mathers nor Crowley hold a monopoly over the way they are implemented, if at all. I've discussed the scientific aproach before, and the same holds true here. You won't find the answer in either examples or rules, no one will tell you there is one sure-fire way to read, but when the GD created a system, that is exactly what it was, and the key part of any system is consistency, and this is what the EDs (whatever counting method you use) are for. The goal is to not get in a situation in a reading where you say "looks like I won't get the job of my dreams, but using EDs I will, so I choose the better answer." While I see the value of the systematic method, I have received very accurate readings from people with no method, so there is that. The key is simply to choose one method, and to stick to it, not because an authority told you (there are no authorities) but because you discovered it works.

The same, incidentally, goes for Crowley and his visions. There is no proof whether he did or didn't have them, it is an article of ambiguous faith whether he did or didn't. Even if he did receive Liber AL from a supernatural being, that being still didn't give him the rules for elemental dignities. He did what any occultist does, took ideas from others, adapted them and brought them into the fold of his own theories. This doesn't mean they are right, it merely means they are consistent (and sometimes they aren't even that). The man you met in Amsterdam may have been a charlatan, true, but such people have always existed. The deciding factor in doing anything is in its efficacy. You yourself practice the LBRP. Why? Is it because some authority told you to do it, or because you discovered for yourself that it benifits you? If the former, then it very similar to the old religions based on fear and appeasing some amorphous and jealous deity,regardless of whether the adherant understands the reasoning or not (an example of this is that many Jews in the diaspora do not understand Hebrew, but still say the prayers, not knowing what it is they say, simply because they are "supposed to."). If the latter, then it is a whole other story.

yogiman said:
Now what confuses me, is that the golden dawn didn't look for a way to decide whether a card is well- or ill-dignified, though they did have a method to determine the validity of the reading by means of the significator.

But they did, it's what we've been talking about, the elemental dignities. Ever wondered why the Book of Thoth is so big, filled with information, meditations, attributions, analyses and everything Crowley could intellectually vomit, yet the section on actual divination is so small, the ED examples so few, and the actual reading (apart from the process) is dismissed as "tell a story using the cards?" In my opinion, this shows just how little importance he attributed to the divination part, whereas personal developement was gained by pondering the cards themselves. But then, however rigid a system you attempt to place on reading, and although you began with your dislike of ambiguity, it will always be somewhat ambiguous. Besides, well or ill dignified are in themselves ambiguous terms, it's all part of it.
 

firecatpickles

The EDs are one reading method among many, and are probably not divinely inspired, not more correct than any other, and neither Mathers nor Crowley hold a monopoly over the way they are implemented [...]

My thoughts exactly.

Each reader has a method of not only randomiziing the cards but also a reading method; both fit hand-in-glove with the reader's unique "how-to", making connections with their sitter through the meaning of the cards, the relationship between the sitter and their cards and the reader's relationship with the sitter.
 

yogiman

In the end, I get the feeling you're looking for an authority who will tell you if something is the real deal. I doubt you'll find that, here or elsewhere.
Modern Tarot readers tend to favor results above all else, whether a reading is correct or not.
Besides, well or ill dignified are in themselves ambiguous terms, it's all part of it.

Though Uri Geller was a conjuror (and a very praiseworthy one), in the beginning his tricks were even regarded by reputed people within the scientific community. But he became secretly an embarassment to the nation (http://www.uri-geller.com/geller-effect/tge13.htm):a fact that is mentioned in the dutch wikipedia, but not in the english one, is that his career was spearheaded by the late prime minister Golda Meïr who replied on the question what she would predict for the future of Israel, responded:"Don't ask me, but ask Uri Geller".


the key part of any system is consistency, and this is what the EDs (whatever counting method you use) are for.

The matter here is not in the sense of a scientific method, but a procedure for the genuine reading of tarot. What you are implying is that it would not have mattered if the ED rules were defined as: fire is friendly to water, and earth and water are inimical.

The key is simply to choose one method, and to stick to it, not because an authority told you (there are no authorities) but because you discovered it works.

Presumably almost all members of the now extinct golden dawn order practised the OOTK, at least, Crowley, Annie Horniman and Paul Foster Case did so.


yet the section on actual divination is so small, the ED examples so few, and the actual reading (apart from the process) is dismissed as "tell a story using the cards?" In my opinion, this shows just how little importance he attributed to the divination part

Crowley in the BoT, p.249
The reactions of the cards, their interplay with each other, must be built into the very life of the student.

Then how is he to use them? How is he to blend their life with his? The ideal way is that of contemplation. But this involves initiation of such high degree that it is impossible to describe the method in this place. Nor is it either attractive or suitable to most people. The practical every-day commonplace way is divination.



Praise for your eloquent explanations, but imo in some way you match -taroteon- in airiness. But I agree with you in my like of the LBRP.
 

zhan.thay

Your questions have stimulated much debate and a wealth of information from many contributors. Thank you.

This is undignified and irrelevant:
Though Uri Geller was a conjuror (and a very praiseworthy one), in the beginning his tricks were even regarded by reputed people within the scientific community. But he became secretly an embarassment to the nation (http://www.uri-geller.com/geller-effect/tge13.htm):a fact that is mentioned in the dutch wikipedia, but not in the english one, is that his career was spearheaded by the late prime minister Golda Meïr who replied on the question what she would predict for the future of Israel, responded:"Don't ask me, but ask Uri Geller".
 

yogiman

This is undignified and irrelevant:

It is not personal, and it is not irrelevant. I want to make a clear statement. Though 2=0 is a mathematical philosophical spiritual truth, to us mortals evil and falsehood are a REALITY that should not be relativized into a samadhi-like space of indifference. Don't forget that the virtue of Malkuth is discrimination.
 

Always Wondering

Perhaps not many people use ED. Personally I don't believe in it. Fire (projective) and water (receptive) don't exactly neutralize one another. Physically they make energy in the form of steam. Alchemically they make the philosophers stone. Biologically they make babies. The influence of fire and water together is transformed but by no means eliminated.

Temperance (the synthesis of opposites) is one of the most potent cards in the deck. It is the key to personal transformation from egocentricity to true self-consciousness.

This is in need of a like button too!