Thoth deck the one and only?

Crowley was not appreciating other tarot decks. It seems to me that there are different people, thus different universes, thus different tarot decks proper. One might assert that this one is gold, that one is silver, one is copper, and some are just trash.

I mention this, because I am studying the Jungian Tarot by Sally Nichols at the moment, and it is refreshing. It is like viewing the world with a male perspective (Thoth) vs. a female perspective (Marseilles).

The Thoth Tarot was not published as a deck during Crowley's lifetime. He apparently read primarily with a TdM style deck, and likely made his own Golden Dawn style deck during his time in that order. He more frequently used the I Ching for divination. It's ironic that his tarot work is so much better known than his I Ching publication.

I really like the Rosetta tarot as a close alternative to the Thoth, and use it often due to its availability as a phone app. Sometimes I like to use my oldest deck the Mythic Tarot. I find it good for some types of readings, and Thoth good for others.

yogiman said:

Crowley was not appreciating other tarot decks.

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Wrong! Crowley probably never had a Thoth deck. So he certainly could not have seen the 'Thoth deck as the one and only'. It didn't appear until 1969. The deck he used was before a Thoth deck was every created. Do your homework.

If you think people here see the Thoth as the one and only I think you are mistaken ... I don't recall anyone here being like that or saying that - except you.

You keep projecting your ideas on to us and then asking for explanations of why we are that way, or why it is that way. I think you need to start asking some different questions - about yourself.

yogiman said:

It seems to me that there are different people, thus different universes, thus different tarot decks proper. One might assert that this one is gold, that one is silver, one is copper, and some are just trash.

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Of course - that's life.

yogiman said:

I mention this, because I am studying the Jungian Tarot by Sally Nichols at the moment, and it is refreshing. It is like viewing the world with a male perspective (Thoth) vs. a female perspective (Marseilles).

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I think you need to get out of your stuck male perspective then ... the Thoth tarot IS NOT from a male perspective ... it is just your assumption that is wrong ... (like the one about Crowley not appreciating other decks)

Women are replaced as the rulers in the Courts (Queens) the primary male energy is a Knight - he who supports the Queen.

Strength is 'Lust' - a woman 'in whom all power is given'

The Aeon (or old Last Judgment ) has a woman above it. The Universe has a woman creating it. The Hierophant has an internal Goddess shown. ... I wont go on ....

Try look at your Thoth deck without your own male projections and see it as it is.

By the way, I also APPRECIATE the Mythic and Jungian tarot.

I think your problem is some internal conflict - try to get rid of that Vs concept - and see them as both valid sides of the one coin ... how can you have a coin with one side that is better than the other ?

{try this; an intellectual and Hermetic approach does not exclude women ... women can be quiet good and comprehending Hermetics and many are quiet intellectual --- Men can be quiet good and comprehending the abstract and symbology and the area of myth and Jungian psychology ( hint; Jung was a man ! ) - men have a soul the same as women have an intellect, in many of us, both man and woman, soul is lost and needs 'redemption' and in many of us, man and woman, intellect is lost and needs 'redemption'.}

I'm not sure how you figure the Marseilles is feminine; nothing about it seems overtly feminine to me. For that matter, I don't see the Thoth as masculine either, Tarot decks don't have sexes. Both decks are actually good examples of being gender-neutral, as per the examples ravenest gave.

As to Crowley's appreciation of other decks, I don't know where you got that from, since it's news to me. Obviously if you create something, especially a five-year project, you'll have a special place in your heart for it, so I can imagine he did like his own deck. Like was said before me, though, he never actually saw the Thoth in deck form. In a review, though, Crowley actually praised Pamela Coleman-Smith's executions on the deck she worked on, although he dissed the companion book it came with.

Besides, I am somewhat mystified by the question even being here. Are you illuminating my perception that other decks besides the Thoth exist? Are you asking why I use the Thoth but not the Jungian? If you're studying the Jungian, why is this question even here? Are you recommending I be refreshed by using the Jungian? Or like ravenest asked, are you answering an imaginary claim that no one made that all decks that aren't the Thoth are crap? I'm not asking in a snarky way, I really don't understand.

closrapexa said:

Obviously if you create something, especially a five-year project, you'll have a special place in your heart for it, so I can imagine he did like his own deck. Like was said before me, though, he never actually saw the Thoth in deck form.

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I think it's good to remember when looking at Crowley's perspective on tarots, that Crowley was trained in the tarot by the Golden Dawn. His perspective was that there was a true approach to tarot, that was communicated in secret to initiates by the order that communicated the knowledge of the Secret Chiefs. Crowley as the receiver of the Book of The Law received from the Secret Chiefs an update to this 'true tarot', which is specifically mentioned in that text "Tzaddi is not the Star etc..". So I think it's quite valid to say that Crowley saw the tarot he created with Frieda Harris as the 'corrected tarot', from the perspective of someone who saw Thelema as the Word of the new Aeon, though I don't think we could say he didn't appreciate other decks as what existed at that time were all part of a related progression and legacy. Other tarots including the GD would still be valid within the formula of the preceding Aeon, but the Thoth deck was the only one valid within the formula of the new Aeon at that time (now we have a few more examples of Thelemic tarots too which is grand, and also actual copies of the Thoth )

Well, new Aeon or not, I think he was right. Now, before the villagers storm the castle, I had better explain.

The decks Crowley would have been familiar with would have been the old Marseilles and Visconti decks, the Sola Busca, the early occult decks (Ettiella et al) and the GD decks. All of these follow an old, some would say outdated view not only of the occult, but of society in general. The "medieval" decks are representative of their times, as is the Sola Busca. The newer (de Gebelin, etc.) occult decks as well as the GD decks look back, at what has been done. They could be said to reflect a society that doesn't exist anymore, a feudal way of life that isn't relevant to modern sensibilities.

The Thoth, however, differentiates itself by looking forward. As a cohesive work, it introduces many ideas far more in tune with modern developments in science, spirituality as well as society than those older decks. It is a "corrected" deck. It puts women in a far more prominent role, it discards many sexual taboos, it suggests different sexual orientations, and goes further than other contemporary decks in acknowledging the winds of change prevalent in the 20th century, putting man at the center (not only of religion but of society as a whole, with the advent of increased awareness of human rights). Crowley knew that in order for a deck, or any other work of art, to be relevant, it would have to reflect changing attitudes.

Since he was in the business of occult science, he wouldn't have seen the use of outdated ideas, anymore than disproved scientific theories would be taught in schools for nostalgia's sake (creationism aside, of course). But I don't see anything wrong with that, especially if we're talking about subjective views. I mean, it seems like political-correctness taken to extremes, if the creator of a work isn't allowed to think his creation is the best, or be proud of it, but has to say his creation is no better or worse, just different. Should even the mere fact that he created a deck and liked it be held against him?

closrapexa said:

The Thoth, however, differentiates itself by looking forward. As a cohesive work, it introduces many ideas far more in tune with modern developments in science, spirituality as well as society than those older decks. It is a "corrected" deck. It puts women in a far more prominent role, it discards many sexual taboos, it suggests different sexual orientations, and goes further than other contemporary decks in acknowledging the winds of change prevalent in the 20th century, putting man at the center (not only of religion but of society as a whole, with the advent of increased awareness of human rights). Crowley knew that in order for a deck, or any other work of art, to be relevant, it would have to reflect changing attitudes.

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Thanks Clos, that is really beautiful. I am always a little confused when people blindly repeat "Crowley the wickedest man" jargon, not aware that a major part of why he was considered so naughty in his era was because he espoused social values that didn't reach mainstream awareness for decades after his death, and that we've since developed much further than then even (thankfully). So much of what his peers objected to is nearly universally accepted today, and encouraged. It seems we are able to celebrate the Wildes of that era, but not yet the Crowleys.

And thank you too for rephrasing the essence of the question (?) in a much better form ;

Grigori said:

So I think it's quite valid to say that Crowley saw the tarot he created with Frieda Harris as the 'corrected tarot', from the perspective of someone who saw Thelema as the Word of the new Aeon, though I don't think we could say he didn't appreciate other decks as what existed at that time were all part of a related progression and legacy.

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Instead of " Crowley was not appreciating other tarot decks".

To be fair, Crowley has made a statement somewhere in which he portrays the Tarot de Marseilles as being infantile. And as a matter of fact my original phasing was: the infantile Marseilles vs the male adult Thoth. With regard to gender, compare both High Priestesses, and you see that Crowley's is tomboyish. Though this adaptation was visionary and female emancipatory, today many women have swinged to the other direction by adopting extreme male values, to the expense of female care and softness.

Through the Jungian approach of Sally Nichols, I now appreciate those "infantile" depictions of the tarot figures, as if my inner child is being revived. She claims that the esoteric based tarot cards are created on basis of philosophy, while the TdM has arisen straight from the subconscious of the mystery artist. Presumably like Crowley she is exaggerating, and both decks should be viewed in their own light. Because at the moment I am in a crisis, I feel more drawn to the simplistic "inner child" Marseilles, though that can easily change in the future.

yogiman said:

With regard to gender, compare both High Priestesses, and you see that Crowley's is tomboyish. Though this adaptation was visionary and female emancipatory, today many women have swinged to the other direction by adopting extreme male values, to the expense of female care and softness.

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I appreciate that English may not be your first language, and I wouldn't want to misinterpret what you're saying.... but I'm really struggling to accept what you seem to be saying here.