Thoth deck the one and only?

Richard

I don't know exactly what Little Bethel refers to, but since Bethel is a transliteration of בית אל, House of God, it is food for thought: the Fool (everyone) as a little house of God. Or metaphorically, the Fool is God. Again, I appeal to Blake:

God appears, and God is light,
To those poor souls who dwell in night;
But does a human form display
To those who dwell in realms of day.

The Fool, being unnumbered in the Marseille, is outside the Sephirotic Tree. He is Nothing, worthy only of being a target for stone projectiles and belligerent beasts. Oh well, he's just asking for it, I guess.

Zephyros

Le Fanu said:
As I have no idea what point yogiman is making, can I ask you to elaborate a little on this? Which cards suggest this to you? I'm intrigued...

My immediate response would be the dual-sexed Art, but as that is both simplistic (and maybe obvious) that's not a satisfactory answer. But I don't really have one, since this is all feeling. Still, the philosophy of freedom behind the deck would seem to support this. Mostly, though, it is from the abstraction of the deck. The elevation of the female force to one that is coeval with the male allows for all sorts of permutations of this sort, admitting that we all have more than one side. The woman on Lust being wild with desire, rather than the demure, calm figure taming (chaining?) the lion's urges... I guess it has to do with "atmosphere."

Short answer, I don't know, but I'm sure there is an answer!

ravenest

closrapexa said:
... I guess it has to do with "atmosphere."

Short answer, I don't know, but I'm sure there is an answer!

Dang! I cant find it ... it is a short statement on the Gnostic Mass of how the formula is changed slightly (in the Mass and in other things and it may relate to Thoth Deck) to incorporate the new formula and manifestation of woman

Its a brief paragraph on a one page sheet sort of advertising the mass, issued by AC ... I think.

I have no idea how to word the search ... it is in a document in my hard copy files somewhere ... I will have a snoop.

Grigori

closrapexa said:
My immediate response would be the dual-sexed Art, but as that is both simplistic (and maybe obvious) that's not a satisfactory answer. But I don't really have one, since this is all feeling. Still, the philosophy of freedom behind the deck would seem to support this. Mostly, though, it is from the abstraction of the deck. The elevation of the female force to one that is coeval with the male allows for all sorts of permutations of this sort, admitting that we all have more than one side. The woman on Lust being wild with desire, rather than the demure, calm figure taming (chaining?) the lion's urges... I guess it has to do with "atmosphere."

Short answer, I don't know, but I'm sure there is an answer!

There are references, I'd have to dig up the details to elaborate though. The lesbian pornography Crowley references for the placement of the birds on the Empress card, and male receptive sex (not sure if in the context of ritual or just for the fun of it) later in the deck.

Grigori

I should add also that as a depiction of Thelemic philosophy, it's everywhere implied.

Liber LXXVII

"the law of
the strong:
this is our law
and the joy
of the world."
—AL. II. 21
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." —AL. I. 40

"thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay." —AL. I. 42–3

"Every man and every woman is a star." —AL. I. 3

There is no god but man.

1. Man has the right to live by his own law—
to live in the way that he wills to do:
to work as he will:
to play as he will:
to rest as he will:
to die when and how he will.
2. Man has the right to eat what he will:
to drink what he will:
to dwell where he will:
to move as he will on the face of the earth.
3. Man has the right to think what he will:
to speak what he will:
to write what he will:
to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
to dress as he will.
4. Man has the right to love as he will:—
"take your fill and will of love as ye will,
when, where, and with whom ye will." —AL. I. 51
5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.
"the slaves shall serve." —AL. II. 58
"Love is the law, love under will." —AL. I. 57

Aeon418

closrapexa said:
My immediate response would be the dual-sexed Art, but as that is both simplistic (and maybe obvious) that's not a satisfactory answer.

Crowley saw the increasing emergence (and ultimate acceptance) of alternative sexualities as a sign that the Aeon of Horus was progressing and taking shape. To him it was a manifestation of the Divine Androgyne that features prominently throughout the Thoth deck.
I don't see why anyone should freaked by that, unless they hold very rigid views about sexuality. Or maybe someone who is conflicted and wants to come out of the closet is projecting their anger onto a set of symbols that are stiring up repressed and unwanted feelings.

From the intro to The Book of the Law:

Aleister Crowley said:
He rules the present period of 2,000 years, beginning in 1904. Everywhere his government is taking root. Observe for yourselves the decay of the sense of sin, the growth of innocence and irresponsibility, the strange modifications of the reproductive instinct with a tendency to become bisexual or epicene, the childlike confidence in progress combined with the nightmare fear of catastrophe, against which we are yet half unwilling to take precautions.

ravenest

Ah yes .... nothing like repressed and unwanted feelings insisting they surface through the mask of ego to cause aversion and discomfort.

Perhaps that is why some have an instant aversion to the deck and concepts (some without being able to reasonably explain why ... its an unconscious thing I guess) ... yet others snatch it up and feel 'At last! Just what I was searching for."

With a bit of both going on (the unconscious urging to accept the symbols in the deck and the ego ... or other shallow social convention) rejecting it at the same time ... bit of a mess there.

Hmmm ... thanks for that prod :thumbsup:

... I haven't previously linked (consciously

) the idea of the symbols on the cards affecting the unconscious in that way before ... after all, symbol is the language of the unconscious.

Le Fanu

mmm... yes, *atmosphere*. I guess it is just that. Thanks for the replies. I thought there was some obvious - I don't mean explicit - same sex stuff. I don't get any to be honest. There's maleness balanced by femaleness but that's something else. But to refer to the "philosphy as freedom" as supporting this makes me think that the deck would - by extension - be in favour of absolutely anything! Intriguing stuff.

ravenest

Maybe I get it easier as in the past I have seen a social dynamic where a macho heterosexual finds it offensive to even suggest he may have an internal or psychological component represented by what he feels should be female classified traits.

Even to the extent of 'cooking is gay' ... so it isn't done ... (big tough man has to run off and find a replacement mummy to cook his din-dins for him ... otherwise his 'manlyness' might be 'threatened' :laugh:

)

Weird ... I know , but I have seen it. Now I am imagining what someone like that who looked at the androgynous figure in ART would think about it. Let alone if they were told it was a picture that represented an aspect of themselves.

To me , it is maybe more ridiculous as I am a heterosexual Cancerian male and I like cooking, home based stuff and little children. (I do believe the old dinosaurs are slowly becoming extinct though.)

Richard

ravenest said:
Maybe I get it easier as in the past I have seen a social dynamic where a macho heterosexual finds it offensive to even suggest he may have an internal or psychological component represented by what he feels should be female classified traits.

Even to the extent of 'cooking is gay' ... so it isn't done ... (big tough man has to run off and find a replacement mummy to cook his din-dins for him ... otherwise his 'manlyness' might be 'threatened' )

Weird ... I know , but I have seen it. Now I am imagining what someone like that who looked at the androgynous figure in ART would think about it. Let alone if they were told it was a picture that represented an aspect of themselves.

You have described a typical American redneck, except that a redneck loves to barbeque in the back yard in summer as long as there is a generous supply of cold Budweiser to replace the fluids lost in sweat. Only in summer, however, and only outdoors, and only Budweiser.

Thoth deck the one and only?

Richard

Zephyros

ravenest

Grigori

Grigori

Aeon418

ravenest

Le Fanu

ravenest

Richard