What are the guiding lights to true will? (split from Thoth Deck the One and Only)

Zephyros

:laugh: VERY good except you left out the required Thelemic bestiality ;)

That's in the adult version. The wolf asks Hood if she'd like to mosey on to his place and "experience the totality of Nuit" with him. She answers it's no fair leaving Granny out.
 

ravenest

That's in the adult version. The wolf asks Hood if she'd like to mosey on to his place and "experience the totality of Nuit" with him. She answers it's no fair leaving Granny out.

Been done already ... see redtube

However I feel their version doesn't explore the left side of the tree properly ... Granny is obviously Binah exerting her influence through Mars (one aspect of the wolf) down 'through' Hod (Hood) and into the 'path of the 'Moon' ' - as yours seems to suggest

I have another nursery rhyme version for this thread ...but best for a PM ;)
 

yogiman

Christianity, for example, has whole cultures and contexts to back it up, and has greatly influenced society in the way that ideas are conveyed. Superman, Batman, Little Red Riding Hood and Cinderella are all Christ figures, and serve to convey Christian values very well.
Surely, the god Ram in the Ramayana is more akin to superman and batman, than Christ is. I don't mean to downplay christian culture, but I feel a strong urge to be universal, and let my cultural predilection be decided by true will. Again, I think that Crowley's opinions were very much time related.

from 8 lectures on yoga, about the use of mantra yoga

I need here only say that its constant use, day and night, without a moment's cessation, is probably as useful a method as one could find of preparing the current of thought for the assumption of a rhythmical form, and rhythm is the great cure for irregularity.

I welcome this advice from Crowley very much, as I spent 2 hours per day on mantra yoga myself. But if you are repeating sanskrit mantras continually, then you can't maintain your spiritual practise is rooted in western culture.
 

ravenest

But I don't think any one is claiming the spiritual practice Crowley recommends is rooted in western culture. What you quoted was Crowley writing on Yoga so ...

Who said it had to be a Sanskrit mantra?

(You started saying that yourself in post 3 but the other posts after clarified that )

I did say that Tarot was a western tradition. But Crowley's system wasn't, actually it was a type of theosophical society (east meets west) inversion .

Your subject matter here still seems obscure and shifts and changes when one tries to pin it down ???

Western culture (particularly hermetics) comes from a variety of sources and even the Vedic culture and eastern philosophies you are talking about had an origin IN the west .

The deeper one looks the broader the vision is ... we are all 'soup' ... sometimes the carrots lump together in one corner until it is stirred up again.
 

Zephyros

Surely, the god Ram in the Ramayana is more akin to superman and batman, than Christ is. I don't mean to downplay christian culture, but I feel a strong urge to be universal, and let my cultural predilection be decided by true will. Again, I think that Crowley's opinions were very much time related.

It isn't about their being warriors, or turning the other cheek (those are the particulars of the stories) but about the cycle of life, death and subsequent rebirth, a dramatic pageant played out in the movements of the sun, source of all life and warmth on Earth. The Christ figure is far older than Christ himself. Persephone is one. Osiris is one, as are Isaac and Joseph. Noah is a Christ figure. Superman, dying a symbolic death when Krypton exploded is reborn here as a solar hero, the sun (there's that sun again) giving him godly powers. Gandalf, Frodo, Mario, Pokemon, Theseus, Holden Caulfield, Galahad, Parzival, Moses, Paul Muad'Dib, and Sunny Came Home are all Christ figures. It's about the innocent making the ultimate sacrifice for the good of the community. Red Riding Hood begins as king of the world with her basket of food, she dies and is subsequently reborn as the queen of heaven (union with the huntsman and the grandmother). I could go on, but you've got the picture.

Batman is also a Christ figure, but an inverted one. Now, to be fair, the formula of the dying god doesn't appear in all cultures, but at the very least, Crowley himself was deeply affected by it, so it is a key to understanding the Book of Law. I'm not sure how his being affected by his times enters into this. Obviously he was, as are the Bible and the Qur'an.
 

yogiman

Who said it had to be a Sanskrit mantra?
All western languages have their root in sanskrit. It seems to me that the essence of hebrew is number, and the essence of sanskrit is sound. The one is more "spirit", and the other is more "soul". Crowley mentions only the indian gayatri mantra in 8 lectures on yoga.
8 lectures on yoga
... and he shall salute the Moon on her appearance with the Mantra Gayatri. The best way is to say the Mantra instantly one sees the Moon, to note whether the attention wavers, and to repeat the Mantra until it does not waver at all.




Western culture (particularly hermetics) comes from a variety of sources and even the Vedic culture and eastern philosophies you are talking about had an origin IN the west .
Very likely it is the other way around. The academical version is that the vedas with sanskrit language were brought to india by the arians from present Iran, who invaded the country between 3000-1500 BC. Several reputed voices are claiming now that the story was cooked up by british historians in order to excuse british emperialism. It's a pity that the thelemapedia does make no mention of this.

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_frawley_1.html
 

ravenest

All western languages have their root in sanskrit. It seems to me that the essence of hebrew is number, and the essence of sanskrit is sound. The one is more "spirit", and the other is more "soul". Crowley mentions only the indian gayatri mantra in 8 lectures on yoga.

That is because it is a book on Yoga … he has written other books on the subject 'relating' to mantra, you realise? (see Postcards to Probationers to understand mantras application to western magick).


That doesn't mean that a mantra HAS to be in Sanskrit. That is just a recommendation in a book by Crowley about Yoga ... one who understands the system will see 'mantra' and understand its usage in the context of magick and how it fits into the overall scheme and equates with the systems of Yogas ... not just 'a yoga' – but I already posted that info for you so … <shrug>


And it affirms that Crowley's system isn't restricted to being 'rooted in western culture' - as you seemed to be claiming ???


When one studies Crowley's system a bit more broadly one finds things such as (one of the 'supreme' 'mantras') ; 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law' – English


Or even the ‘Holiest’ mantra ; "The holiest of all mantras," so described in Part II of Book Four, is from the obverse of the Stele of Revealing. – Egyptian.

a ka dua
tuf ur biu
bi a'a chefu
dudu nur af an nuteru

http://hermetic.com/dionysos/akadua.htm

Yogiman said:
Very likely it is the other way around. The academical version is that the vedas with sanskrit language were brought to india by the arians from present Iran, who invaded the country between 3000-1500 BC. Several reputed voices are claiming now that the story was cooked up by british historians in order to excuse british emperialism. It's a pity that the thelemapedia does make no mention of this.

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_frawley_1.html

Why would thelemapedia mention it when it isn't on topic, nor academic and is doubted by academia and has only MARGINAL support?


What reputed voices? ? The article attached to the link you gave isn’t much … it makes ridiculous claims and then refutes them as proofs (the root of ‘Sir’ is just silly). … its just someone’s rave with no academia or references.

Are you saying that ‘several reputed voices’ (without referencing anything) are more reliable than ‘academical version’ ??? The Academic version cross-references the Vedas, the Avestas, genetic research, archaeology … the ‘reputed voices’ ???

To claim that ; “the vedas with sanskrit language were brought to india by the arians from present Iran” is just silly … Airyana Vaeja Empire was not in Iran (more like the latter Greek Bactria ) this was before the beginning of Iran …. let alone ‘present day Iran’ .

There is a MASS of academic evidence to explain what I say and it is also described in the earliest Vedas.

After the Great War of religion (as described in the Avestas and Ferdowski’s epic Shahmenah ) the Devarti left Ariana Vaeja and went through the Hindu Kush into India (leaving their beloved homeland and the land of the native Soma behind – as they themselves lament in their own Vedas !)

To get around this some 'Out of India' theorists postulate they started in India ... went out and then came back (to explain the 'came back' evidence ) while offering no original 'went out' evidence.

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/location.htm

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/contents_history.htm

and in regard to linguistics and cultural origins; “Other theories (Armenian hypothesis, Out of India theory, Paleolithic Continuity Theory, Balkan hypothesis) have only marginal scientific support. “

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

Let me know when you are finished with laying red herrings across your own path to, ‘What are the guiding lights to the True Will?’ (split from the ‘Thoth deck, one and only’) … which IMO still seems as ’loaded with another underlying agenda’ as the first thread, even through the split and the thread title change.
 

yogiman

I have done some homework, and I hope that some of the contributors to the Thelemapedia will have a look at the presented links.

Why would thelemapedia mention it when it isn't on topic, nor academic and is doubted by academia and has only MARGINAL support?

I like to question how the work of Aleister Crowley is received by academic philosophical mainstream. I also like to question how AC looked upon british emperialist rule, and vice versa, when he wrote WWI pro-german war propaganda ("though he worked undercover for the british intelligence").

What reputed voices?
Here http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/read/1040 is a good article which mentions some names: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Klostermaier, http://www.brusselsjournal.com/koenraadelst, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhash_Kak, http://phys.org/news90697187.html,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._S._Rajaram
The Academic version cross-references the Vedas, the Avestas, genetic research, archaeology

Refutation of the genetical argument: http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/genetics-aryan-debate.html#Aryan-Invasion

There is a MASS of academic evidence to explain what I say and it is also described in the earliest Vedas.

After the Great War of religion (as described in the Avestas and Ferdowski’s epic Shahmenah ) the Devarti left Ariana Vaeja and went through the Hindu Kush into India (leaving their beloved homeland and the land of the native Soma behind – as they themselves lament in their own Vedas !)
-Devarti- doesn't yield a result in the google engine.The words Aryana vaeja are mentioned in the old persian avesta, and not in the vedas. It is very uncertain where it was situated, and there are differing opinions about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airyanem_Vaejah. One scholar situates it at Kashmir:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rigveda:_A_Historical_Analysis.

Rajiv Malhotra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajiv_Malhotra) writes in the Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rajiv-malhotra/how-europeans-misappropri_b_837376.html):
In 2007, I played a role in a historic milestone when I was invited to address the first Hindu-Jewish Summit. I spoke on the Aryan myth and the suffering that it had inflicted on both religious communities. Contrary to earlier apprehensions of some Hindus that this was a "risky" topic to bring up, the head of the Jewish delegation, Rabbi Rosen, member of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel's Commission for Inter-religious Dialogue, was very impressed. The Jewish delegation decided to appoint a team of scholars to study the issue and the references I had supplied. As a result, at the following year's Summit, a joint declaration was signed, which included the following language from my draft:

"Since there is no conclusive evidence to support the theory of an Aryan invasion/migration into India, and on the contrary, there is compelling evidence to refute it; and since the theory seriously damages the integrity of the Hindu tradition and its connection to India; we call for a serious reconsideration of this theory, and a revision of all educational material on this issue that includes the most recent and reliable scholarship."
 

ravenest

I have done some homework, and I hope that some of the contributors to the Thelemapedia will have a look at the presented links.

I have done some Anthropology at Uni and studied it for the next 20 years after Uni.

I see no reason to include this subject in Thelemapadia, why should they? Will they include the origins of the Australian aboriginal in Thelemapedia?

I like to question how the work of Aleister Crowley is received by academic philosophical mainstream. I also like to question how AC looked upon british emperialist rule, and vice versa, when he wrote WWI pro-german war propaganda ("though he worked undercover for the british intelligence").

It is dated and ill-informed of course ... there has been a lot of knowledge and research and discoveries since then ... we haven't been in a 'thelemic time-stasis' since then. The same with his contempories understanding of Egyptology ... we have come a long way since then as well. As usual, I have no idea what point you are trying to make here?

-Devarti- doesn't yield a result in the google engine.

There is more to life than the google search engine ... I actually supplied you with that information in the previous links; it takes little brain power to link the word; 'rti' - or 'one who is' Deva ... that is a Div, Daeva or Deva worshipper ... a Vedic (those who were to later compose the Vedas) - go to the link I sent you and look up 'Pre-Zoroastrian religion' you will see three streams of that, one were termed Deva worshipers.

The words Aryana vaeja are mentioned in the old persian avesta, and not in the vedas. It is very uncertain where it was situated, and there are differing opinions about it:

Yes, of course. It is an Avestan language word ... the Vedas are written in Sanskrit not Avestan ... why would an Avestan word appear in the Vedas :confused:

Again, check the link I gave you, it is a very informative site , look under 'location of Aryan Homeland ' (Vaeja) there are maps, satellite pics, cross referenced to scripture, old pictograms, archeological sites marked etc etc . all laid out and easy to follow (even a Hindu scholar some years back searched for the old Homeland and targeted it at the North Pole! - The Homeland evemntually suffered climate change and got iced out, that's why they moved) .This idea about Out of India theory is a recent political invention.

Maybe have a look at those linked sites I gave you previously, instead of going to the other side (un-academic and politically motivated side) . Also it makes a lot of common sense as well, look at the satellite maps and the land forms ...

One needs an understanding from BOTH sides to gain a clear picture ... Avestas, not just Vedas.
 

ravenest

I answer always.

So do I 

Re sanskrit ; (which you stated; “All western languages have their root in Sanskrit.”)

According to the linguistic centre of gravity principle, the most likely point of origin of a language family is in the area of its greatest diversity. By this criterion, India, home to only a single branch of the Indo-European language family (i. e., Indo-Aryan), is an exceedingly unlikely candidate for the Indo-European homeland, compared to Central-Eastern Europe, for example, which is home to the Italic, Venetic, Illyrian, Albanian, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Thracian and Greek branches of Indo-European.

The earliest written evidence for an Indo-Aryan language is found not in India, but in northern Syria in Hittite records regarding one of their neighbours, the Hurrian-speaking Mitanni.

Most scholars assumed a homeland either in Europe or in Western Asia, and Sanskrit must in this case have reached India by a language transfer from west to east, in a movement described in terms of invasion by 19th century scholars such as Max Müller. With the 20th century discovery of Bronze-Age attestations of Indo-European (Anatolian, Mycenaean Greek), Vedic Sanskrit lost its special status as the most archaic Indo-European language known.

Mallory: "It is highly improbable that the Indo-Aryans of Western Asia migrated eastwards, for example with the collapse of the Mitanni, and wandered into India, since there is not a shred of evidence — for example, names of non-Indic deities, personal names, loan words — that the Indo-Aryans of India ever had any contacts with their west Asian neighbours. The reverse possibility, that a small group broke off and wandered from India into Western Asia is readily dismissed as an improbably long migration, again without the least bit of evidence."
Leach (1990), as cited in Bryant (2001:222)
"Ancient Indian history has been fashioned out of compositions, which are purely religious and priestly, which notoriously do not deal with history, and which totally lack the historical sense.”
F.E. Pargiter 1922. However "the Vedic literature confines itself to religious subjects and notices political and secular occurrences only incidentally ". Cited in R. C. Majumdar and A. D. Pusalker (editors): The history and culture of the Indian people. Volume I, The Vedic age. Bombay : Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan 1951, p.315, with reference to F.E. Pargiter

This argument is associated with the mid-20th century archaeologist Mortimer Wheeler, who interpreted the presence of many unburied corpses found in the top levels of Mohenjo-daro as the victims of conquest wars, and who famously stated that the god "Indra stands accused" of the destruction of the Indus Valley Civilisation

In the later 20th century, ideas were refined along with data accrual, and migration and acculturation were seen as the methods whereby Indo-Aryans spread into northwest India around 1500 BC

The Rigveda is by far the most archaic testimony of Vedic Sanskrit. Bryant suggests that the Rigveda represents a pastoral or nomadic, mobile culture, centred on the Indo-Iranian Soma cult and fire worship.

According to Cardona, "there is no textual evidence in the early literary traditions unambiguously showing a trace" of an Indo-Aryan migration.
But
Bryant: "It must be stated immediately that there is an unavoidable corollary of an Indigenist position. If the Indo-Aryan languages did not come from outside South Asia, this necessarily entails that India was the original homeland of all the other Indo-European languages."

About 1800 BC, there is a major cultural change in the Swat Valley with the emergence of the Gandhara grave culture. With its introduction of new ceramics, new burial rites, and the horse, the Gandhara grave culture is a major candidate for early Indo-Aryan presence.

Indo-Aryan migration into the northern Punjab is approximately contemporaneous to the final phase of the decline of the Indus-Valley civilization.

According to Erdosy, the ancient Harappans were not markedly different from modern populations in North-western India and present-day Pakistan. Craniometric data showed similarity with prehistoric peoples of the Iranian plateau and Western Asia.

A 2011 genetic study "confirmed the existence of a general principal component cline stretching from Europe to south India." They also concluded that the Indian populations are characterized by two major ancestry components, one of which is spread at comparable frequency and haplotype diversity in populations of South and West Asia and the Caucasus.

Furthermore, the majority of researchers have found significant evidence in support of Indo-European migration and even "elite dominance" of the northern half of the Indian subcontinent, usually pointing to three separate lines of evidence.

The previously widespread distribution of Dravidian speakers, now confined to the south of India; the fact that upper caste Brahmins share a close genetic affinity with West Eurasians, whereas low caste Indians tend to have more in common with aboriginals or East Asians;

and the comparatively recent introgression of West Eurasian DNA into the aboriginal population of the post-Neolithic Indo-Gangetic plain.

Other studies also claim that there is genetic evidence in support of the traditional hypothesis of Indo-Aryan migration. Basu et al. argue that the Indian subcontinent was subjected to a series of massive Indo-European migrations about 1500 BC.

The strongest such claims, though, are based upon studies of autosomal DNA, not only Y DNA. Several such studies have isolated two major components of ancestry amongst Indians, one being more common in the south, and amongst lower castes, and the other more common amongst upper caste Indians, Indians speaking Indo-European languages, and also Indians living in the northwest. This second component is shared with populations from the Middle East, Europe and Central Asia, and is thought to represent at least one ancient influx of people from the northwest.

According to one researcher, there is "a major genetic contribution from Eurasia to North Indian upper castes" and a "greater genetic inflow among North Indian caste populations than is observed among South Indian caste and tribal populations."

A more recent study has provided support for an influx of Indo-European migrants into the Indian subcontinent, but not necessarily an "invasion of any kind", further corroborating the findings of previous investigators, such as Bamshad et al. (2001), Wells et al. (2002) and Basu et al. (2003).

The terms North Indian and South Indian are ethno-linguistic categories, with North Indian corresponding to Indo-European-speaking peoples and South Indian corresponding to Dravidian-speaking.
NOTE:
FROM A NATIONALIST POINT OF VIEW, IT IS CLEAR THAT THE CONCEPT OF AN ARYAN-DRAVIDIAN DIVIDE IS PERNICIOUS TO THE UNITY OF THE HINDU STATE, AND AN IMPORTANT AIM FOR HINDUTVA AND NEO-HINDU SCHOLARSHIP IS THEREFOR TO INTRODUCE A COUNTER-NARRATIVE TO THE ONE PRESENTED BY WESTERN ACADEMIC SCHOLARSHIP.

[The same has happened in Australia with the indigenous, previous good anthropological work on the. has been ignored as it doesn’t suit the political case trying to be made for them at this point in time.]

Many furthermore link Indo-Aryan migrations to the origin of caste discrimination and thus the theory is a basis of sentiments around the origin of caste discrimination, as many believe that Indo-Aryans formed the upper castes.

The Hindutva movement.

Nationalistic movements in India oppose the idea that Hinduism has partly endogenous origins. For the founders of the contemporary Hindutva movement, the Aryan migration theory presented a problem. The Hindutva-notion that the Hindu-culture originated in India was threatened by the notion that the Aryans originated outside India. Later Indian writers regarded the Aryan migration theory to be a product of colonialism, aimed to denigrate Hindus. According to them, Hindus had existed in India from times immemorial, as expressed by Golwalkar.


“Undoubtedly ... we Hindus have been in undisputed and undisturbed possession of this land for over 8 or even 10 thousand years before the land was invaded by any foreign race. (Golwakar [1939] 1944.”
‘OUT OF INDIA’ THEORY.
In recent years, the concept of "Indigenous Aryans" has been increasingly conflated with an "Out of India" origin of the Indo-European language family. This contrasts with the model of Indo-Aryan migration which posits that Indo-Aryan tribes migrated to India from Central Asia. Some furthermore claim that all Indo-European languages originated in India. These claims remain problematic.
The Out-of-India view has virtually no academic credibility today, but it was "revived" as a political topic in Hindu nationalism in the late 1990s.
Mallory 1989 "the great majority of scholars insist that the Indo-Aryans were intrusive into northwest India"
The development of historical linguistics, specifically the law of palatals and the discovery of the laryngeals in Hittite, affected Sanskrit's preeminent status as the most venerable elder in this reconstructed family. This eroded support of India as the homeland of Indo-European languages.

“MANY REGARD THE SCHOLARSHIP OF THE INDIGENOUS INDO-ARYAN CAMP SO SERIOUSLY FLAWED THAT IT SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN AN AIRING. THEY VIEW THE INDIGENOUS ARYAN CAMP AS MORE A RELIGION THAN AN ACADEMIC POSITION AND NO AMOUNT OF SCHOLARLY REFUTATION IS LIKELY TO HAVE THE LEAST IMPACT ON ITS ADHERENTS.”

NOTE:
editor J. P. Mallory (2002) the Journal of Indo-European Studies
Witzel (2003) warned: “ It is certain that Kazanas, now that he is published in JIES, will be quoted endlessly by Indian fundamentalists and nationalists as "a respected scholar published in major peer-reviewed journals like JIES" – no matter how absurd his claims are known to be by specialist readers of those journals. It was through means like these that the misperception has taken root in Indian lay sectors that the historical absurdities of Kak, Frawley, and even Rajaram are taken seriously by academic scholars.”

According to Bryant (2001:75), OIT proponents tend to be linguistic dilettantes who either IGNORE THE LINGUISTIC EVIDENCE COMPLETELY, dismiss it as highly speculative and inconclusive (e.g. Chakrabarti 1995 and Rajaram 1995, as cited in Bryant 2001:74, OR ATTEMPT TO TACKLE IT WITH HOPELESSLY INADEQUATE QUALIFICATIONS.

Unlike the Indo-European migration hypothesis, there is no clear genetic evidence for a prehistoric migration out of India. There is no evidence of widespread genetic displacement in Europe after the Paleolithic. And Hemphill (1998) finds "no support for any model that calls for the ultimate origins of north Bactrian oasis Oxus Civilization populations to be inhabitants of the Indus Valley."

The virtual absence of India-specific mtDNA haplogroups outside of India argues against a large scale population movement out of India.[Chaubey et al. (2007)


The latest research conducted by Watkins et al. (2008) The historical record documents an influx of Vedic Indo-European-speaking immigrants into northwest India starting at least 3500 years ago. These immigrants spread southward and eastward into an existing agrarian society dominated by Dravidian speakers

Reich et al. (2009) indicates that the modern Indian population is a result of admixture between Indo-European (ANI) and Dravidian (ASI) populations.

In a 2011 genetic study "confirmed the existence of a general principal component cline stretching from Europe to south India”.

Further references, publications and papers can be found in the following links;
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_India_theory

Even this giant diversion to your own thread and giant diversion to your own learning process in this area (thread topic) - if that IS what you want to learn and isn't a cover - is of no consequence as ... you spent days trying to find sources to back up an unsupported idea that is actually a movement to support Indian nationalism ... is that your aim now ?