question about the decans

yogiman

In -The Qabalistic Tarot- Rober Wang states on p.48:
the decans begin not with the sign Aries, but with Leo. ...The golden dawn told that the commencement of the zodiac at 0 degrees Aries was arbitrary, and returned to the very ancient system where the zodiac begins at 0 degrees Leo. Thus, the first of the decans is the Five of Wands, a dynamic, fiery card.

Why is the commencement of the zodiac at 0 degrees Aries arbitrary, as it starts after the death of winter.
 

Fianic

It's all arbitrary really. Aries used to be the beginning because Spring made logical sense to be the start of the new year for medieval minds when the seasons were important.

http://earthsky.org/earth/why-does-the-new-year-begin-on-january-1

According to this site it explains how January was chosen for the new year. Supposedly because it's near the Winter Solstice.

I have no idea why Leo is the beginning for the GD however.
 

yogiman

In that case it is also arbitrary to make the 5 of wands the first of the decans, instead of the 2 of wands.
 

Abrac

DuQuette says the GD decans begin with Leo because that's the traditional Chaldean start of the year. I agree, but from ancient times Leo was symbolic as herald of the returning sun in many cultures, one of the most notable, Egypt and its Great Sphinx.

From Many Hall's The Secret Teachings of All Ages:

"On the 21st of June, when the sun arrives at the summer solstice, the constellation Leo - being 30° in advance of the sun - appears to be leading the way, and to aid by his powerful paw in lifting the sun up to the summit of the zodiacal arch."

But it does seem odd that the decans begin with five rather than two. I don't think it's arbitrary though. Starting with Aries the numbering goes 2-10. Then it starts over with Cancer and goes 2-10 again. It repeats two more times and arrives back at Aries. The suits follow the elemental attributions of the zodiac sign they correspond to. Aries = Fire, therefore Wands. Taurus = Earth, therefore Pentacles. This pattern repeats all the way around: Fire (Wands), Earth (Pentacles), Air (Swords), Water (Cups). This seems to be the underlying pattern and the Five of Wands just happens to land on 0° Leo.

So on one hand, 0° Leo is the beginning, but they also seem to be giving a nod to 0° Aries. :)
 

ravenest

In -The Qabalistic Tarot- Rober Wang states on p.48:


Why is the commencement of the zodiac at 0 degrees Aries arbitrary, as it starts after the death of winter.


I am not sure about the second part of your sentence; do you mean it should NOT be an arbitrary point as it comes after winter and because of that it must be there? Then we need to examine why 'after the death of winter' is important .


It is arbitrary as it is a point in a circle and the 'start' of any progression around a circle must be arbitrary.

A few points;

Aries was considered to relate to spring and the vigorous energy of new birth and growth. It was originally marked by stars and asterisms , back when the European (western astrology) was set 'in stone' - written down in tables and books - ephemeris (around 300 ad - excuse the slackness here I am going off the top of my head at the moment) the equinoctal point appeared to be in a position that marked the beginning of the 'constellation' of Aries so the zodiac was 'set' here at this point (the intersection of two 'great circle' ; one based on the plane of the Solar system and one based on the axial tilt of the earth) ; 0 degrees Aries and then they went about marking off a sign, 12 each at 30 deg.

Nice and ordered but perhaps not based on the 'naked-eye' observation of the heavens.

But that point moves across the backdrop of stars (about 1 deg every 72 years ???) because the Earths axial tilt wobbles - so by now we are nearly 1 whole sign out from the constellations.

So if you are (by ephemeris and western tropical astrology - the most common type of western astrology - although all other types are not) ' a Capricorn' and you look at the sky on your birthday the planets and Sun will not be in the stars and constellations you thought ... as western astrology ignores them and uses signs that have no reality based on stella position but in 30 degree segment progressions from the equinoctial point - regardless of where that is in the sky (IMO a ridiculous concept).

Magic has a long tradition of working with the stars and planets in their actual positions in the sky. Since this equinoctial point moves it is not a good marker so another type of marker that doesn't move is required ... a star.

The best ones to use are bright ones, easy to find and near the ecliptic. Regulus in Leo is a good candidate for this (as is Vega in Virgo - there might be one or two more but I think these are the main / obvious ones).

Regulus is NOT the beginning of Leo, it is into Leo a bit , being the 'heart of the lion'. In a way it is not the start of the GD zodiac but the marker of the GD zodiac and being a little way in - it is 'set' at regulus . The start is 0 degrees Leo but it is set at Regulus ( 5 degrees Leo, I think, in the GD Zodiac??? ).

I assume the GD used it as it was one of the 4 main stars that marked the 4 parts of the years and Being the Golden Dawn (Solar) and considering Leo's association with the Sun it seems the obvious selection. Also the idea of 'dawn' would go with the 'spring star' and not one that represents winter.

[Wang and Manly Hall have written a lot of speculative ( IMO rubbish) about it but 2 things

It is an arbitrary point from a geometric or astrological view (for calculations)

It is not arbitrary from THAT magical point of view (it may be arbitrary from A magical point of view e.g. ' The Order of Sapphic Star Children' may validly use Vega ). ]
 

ravenest

In that case it is also arbitrary to make the 5 of wands the first of the decans, instead of the 2 of wands.

Considering the settings and reasons above it is not arbitrary ... it is only arbitrary if the whole system is considered that way (which IMO is a wrong consideration) ... if one shifts the circle then all the points in it shift.

Again Regulus is the setting point of the GD Zodiac and not the beginning of it, the beginning of it is -5 (?) degrees from Regulus .
 

yogiman

-10 degrees?

I don't understand from your argument that the beginning should not be the 2 of wands.

I offer the following hypothesis. When the sun is at it's zenith, the sun dial (ancient) is nothing more than a point = zero. So from a timing perspective Leo is the starting point. However, from a spatial perspective the starting point is at dawn. As astrology is time-related, and tarot is space related, it seems to fit: in the circle astrological the starting point is at Leo, and for tarot it is at aries.
 

ravenest

I wasn't saying it should be. I don't even recall mentioning a card.

You quoted Wang quoting the GD saying that.

There have been clear discussions about this before here ... well in GD forum where the subject belongs (as Thoth readers usually don't get so fussy ;) ) , it been nutted out and explained from various good points of view there.

I don't want to have to do it again via sundials becoming points and tarot representing space and astrology time.

In my astro system I start at 0 degrees Aries. If one uses Regulus as a SETTING point and makesa few adjustments to polluted and wrong 'modern' concepts in the constellational boundaries (like giving back Scorpio his amputated claws that went to Libra's scales and other adjustments based on mean asterism position) it works quiet well ... also a good but different 'feel 'can be got with using Vega.

In my Tarot system I start at Aries and the 2 of Wands is the first minor card. The first decan of Aries is just that ... the first decan of Leo is just that as well.

You ( or Wang or Mathers) can call the first decan of Leo the 'start' of their zodiac but so what ... it makes no difference in a circle where one starts except to give significance to a point ASC, MS DSC or IC. The GD said it started as Leo at midheaven (even though they used 'Dawn' in their title) The Mystic Order of Jungian Psychologists might prefer to start their work or focus on the IC. The dying God formula focuses on the DSC.

Its a bit like saying , the majors start at the Strength or Lust, Leo and putting a number 1 on it and numbering the rest different ... it makes no difference ... unless you want it to .
 

yogiman

The starting point is Aries but Aries is set tropically from the equinoctal point.

In the GD the staring point is still Aries but the setting is Regulus (and the GD may have even set that as 0 deg Leo - sorry, cant remember exactly - and then 0 aries is -30 from Regulus, not at the equinoctial point.

Maybe it is because I am dutch, but I don't see so much the difference between commencement (Wang), starting point (yogiman) and setting (Ravenest).

Aries is a full quadrant removed from Leo.
 

ravenest

Maybe it is because I am dutch, but I don't see so much the difference between commencement (Wang), starting point (yogiman) and setting (Ravenest).

Aries is a full quadrant removed from Leo.

I edited above post ... try it now.