Another 3 card spread, help with dignities.

I've been thinking a lot lately about taking a drive down to the local body of the OTO, and investigating initiation, and at least attending a Gnostic Mass, so I thought I would ask the cards if the OTO was a fit for me, specifically I asked should I pursue initiation.
The spread was:
L - 3 of Cups - Abundance
M - Ace of Sword
R - 9 of Disks - Gain

My first thought was that none of the cards alone were anything troublesome, but then I thought about the Ace of Swords being next to the 9 of Disks was a little bothersome, and I'm not sure how to interpret the two. What are your thoughts on the spread?

the 3 of Cups I see as the fulfillment of will of love, and spiritual fertility. The love of the 3 of cups doesn't need to be romantic love, and sitting in the left most position it had me thinking about what kinds of love do we experience before romance in our lives? My first thought was of fraternity and sorority, being that our siblings are our first friends in life, and that word - "Fraternity" - stuck with me, being that the OTO is a fraternal organization.

The other two cards have left me a little baffled as to what they might mean in this context.

That's an interesting draw.

The 3 of Cups makes a lot of sense to me. I read this as a social card. On RWS style decks it's shown as a group of 3 people together. In the Thoth it's the Lord of Abundance, Mercury (communication) in Cancer. This makes a lot of sense to me and bodes well for a fraternal organisation as you described.

Ace of Swords is the most positive card from the Sword suit, but also notice the word 'Thelema' inscribed on the sword itself. Again, interesting for a Thelemic organisation (though you could argue of course that Thelemic references are everywhere apparent in the Thoth deck )

9 of Disks I would read literally as 'gain', but perhaps also as a reminder that the OTO is a temporal organisation and to expect this to be the area you most benefit from. If you're looking for more spiritual pursuits another organisation may be better for you (though the division isn't black and white of course) however this card suggests it would be the more material benefits of the OTO you could expect.

Grigori said:

9 of Disks I would read literally as 'gain', but perhaps also as a reminder that the OTO is a temporal organisation and to expect this to be the area you most benefit from. If you're looking for more spiritual pursuits another organisation may be better for you (though the division isn't black and white of course) however this card suggests it would be the more material benefits of the OTO you could expect.

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OR, the material aspects of the body could be instrumental in success, as in access to other people in the same situation, perhaps teachers, etc. I think that the reading as a whole does suggest going for it, or at least making preliminary overtures about it.

My problem when asking about Will is that I always get such cliched answers. Asking what is my Will I got the Lovers (which is obvious). Asking what my spiritual "level" is, I get the Princess of Discs (duh). But then, I suppose I deserve a stupid answer if I ask a stupid question

saneisjus said:

......My first thought was that none of the cards alone were anything troublesome, but then I thought about the Ace of Swords being next to the 9 of Disks was a little bothersome, and I'm not sure how to interpret the two. What are your thoughts on the spread?......

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I don't see any problem with the Ace of Swords plus the Nine of Disks. Air and Earth are supposedly incompatible only in the context of Elemental Dignities, which doesn't apply in this case. (I think ED is generally crap anyhow, all due respect to Mathers et al.)

closrapexa said:

......My problem when asking about Will is that I always get such cliched answers......

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You too, eh?

I'm a bit confused (which is actually my natural state) but in the Book of Thoth Crowley refers to a card being ill-dignified in a number of instances. Mind you nowhere in BoT does he specifically describe how one ascribes a 'signification' (ill or otherwise). The Little White Book and indeed a number of Thoth-related tomes include the standard Golden Dawn idea of elemental-dignification (i.e. Fire & Water don't play nice and Air & Earth don't play nice).

I did spend quite some time on this website working through Raven's take on the matter and it helped me.
http://www.corax.com/tarot/ (click the Elements thingie on the left hand frame)

I find it really useful to consider the ED of a card/s throughout a spread but do not see it as a simple upright/reversed (as with RWS decks) but rather the light and shadow of a card/s (but then I like Banzhaf's take on light and shadow too). Using ED helps me relate the cards to each other and across a spread.

Consequently my reading of those three cards is very very different from the other interpretations.
But I am but a babe in the woods (and something of a lurker). So I apologise for butting in.

X

LRichard said:

I don't see any problem with the Ace of Swords plus the Nine of Disks. Air and Earth are supposedly incompatible only in the context of Elemental Dignities, which doesn't apply in this case. (I think ED is generally crap anyhow, all due respect to Mathers et al.)QUOTE]

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I think Water and Earth are either friendly-neutral or just friendly, so I take the Ace as being as it is. It isn't strengthened or weakened. For the Ace and for the question I take this as a positive, since clarity, especially of Will, is perhaps best when not forced or surged.

saneisjus said:

specifically I asked should I pursue initiation.

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When you asked the question were you clear in own mind what you mean by the term 'initiation'? Sometimes there is confusion in this area and this could impact the reading.

1) Intiation can mean the Path of the inward journey of self discovery and the developmental 'spiritual landmarks' along the way.

2) Or initiation can mean the joining of an organization such as OTO.

How might this effect the reading? I think the answer could be in the Ace of Swords. Grigori seems to be thinking along the same lines:

Grigori said:

9 of Disks I would read literally as 'gain', but perhaps also as a reminder that the OTO is a temporal organisation and to expect this to be the area you most benefit from. If you're looking for more spiritual pursuits another organisation may be better for you (though the division isn't black and white of course) however this card suggests it would be the more material benefits of the OTO you could expect.

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If your desire for initiation in the OTO is based on a need for fraternity with others coupled with the knowledge that the aims of the OTO are mainly worldly and temporal, then I would interpret the Ace of Swords in it's positive sense as the uniting Vav of the tetragrammaton - IHVH. Here it yolks together the Cups and Disks and the usual elemental dignities would not apply.
But if your motivation has it's roots elsewhere it may indicate the opposite. This would be the Sword as an engine of division. Your desire for initiation may not fit very well with the temporal nature of the OTO. Again it comes back to what you mean by initiation.

But if all you're doing at the moment is 'investigating' why not contact your local body and find out a little about the people involved and what they do. You can do Tarot readings until you are blue in the face, but you won't actually know what the water is like until you get your feet wet.

Grigori said:

That's an interesting draw.

9 of Disks I would read literally as 'gain', but perhaps also as a reminder that the OTO is a temporal organisation and to expect this to be the area you most benefit from. If you're looking for more spiritual pursuits another organisation may be better for you (though the division isn't black and white of course) however this card suggests it would be the more material benefits of the OTO you could expect.

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What exactly do you mean when you say it is a temporal organization?

Spiffo said:

I find it really useful to consider the ED of a card/s throughout a spread but do not see it as a simple upright/reversed (as with RWS decks) but rather the light and shadow of a card/s (but then I like Banzhaf's take on light and shadow too).

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I think you are mistaken in your understanding of ED. I wished you were right, but ED's do not make a card good or ill dignified according to the golden dawn approach. I made this point a short while ago, and I should accept that RWCarter is an authority on this subject. Still, I can't resist discussing it.

yogiman said:

I think you are mistaken in your understanding of ED. I wished you were right, but ED's do not make a card good or ill dignified according to the golden dawn approach. I made this point a short while ago, and I should accept that RWCarter is an authority on this subject. Still, I can't resist discussing it.

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Well we're all entitled to our opinions.