Hierophant's sadistic aspect

Trying to understand the meaning of the following. Could anyone help me ? What exactly is the sadistic aspect to this card ?

"Though the face of the Hierophant appears benignant and smiling, and the child himself seems glad with wanton innocence, it is hard to deny that in the expression of the initiator is something mysterious, even sinister. He seems to be enjoying a very secret joke at somebody's expense. There is a distinctly sadistic aspect to this card. Not unnaturally, since it derives from the Legend of Pasiphae, the prototype of all the legends of Bull-gods. The still persist in such religions as Shavaism, and (after multiple degradations) in Christianity itself".

I don't see it as sadism per se, but the attribution to Taurus suggests work, solidity and perseverance. The Hierophant, as initiator into the mysteries won't just give you the answers, but leaves you to discover them for yourself. Whether you rise or fall, it is your responsibility and his role is quite limited.

That's if you're going up the Tree. If you're going down, the Hierophant is, verily, the Law itself, the rules of creation. Since all creation is balanced and measured, that entails a certain cruelty. Compare the attributions of the three paths of the Chariot, Priestess and Hierophant. I forgot exactly who rules and who is exalted, but you have Cancer, Luna and Taurus. If the Hierophant represents the Law in its formal form, the Chariot is the understanding of it, the idea that the Torah is inscribed into the soul of every man. The Priestess in the center is the amalgamation of the two, the successful synthesis, the Ark. To achieve Keter one "knows" her (in essence, opens the Ark, and thus achieves union with God.

The so called sadism, I think, stems from looking at a person's toil, not helping and saying "yes, that's the way."

closrapexa said:

I don't see it as sadism per se, but the attribution to Taurus suggests work, solidity and perseverance. The Hierophant, as initiator into the mysteries won't just give you the answers, but leaves you to discover them for yourself. Whether you rise or fall, it is your responsibility and his role is quite limited.

That's if you're going up the Tree. If you're going down, the Hierophant is, verily, the Law itself, the rules of creation. Since all creation is balanced and measured, that entails a certain cruelty. Compare the attributions of the three paths of the Chariot, Priestess and Hierophant. I forgot exactly who rules and who is exalted, but you have Cancer, Luna and Taurus. If the Hierophant represents the Law in its formal form, the Chariot is the understanding of it, the idea that the Torah is inscribed into the soul of every man. The Priestess in the center is the amalgamation of the two, the successful synthesis, the Ark. To achieve Keter one "knows" her (in essence, opens the Ark, and thus achieves union with God.

The so called sadism, I think, stems from looking at a person's toil, not helping and saying "yes, that's the way."

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Υes, i had almost the same thoughts, thank you for your reply, i like so much your posts. Moon exalted in Taurus rules Hierophant.

closrapexa said:

The so called sadism, I think, stems from looking at a person's toil, not helping and saying "yes, that's the way."

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I agree. Initiation isn't "conferred," it is "earned."

But . . . I didn't think The Pope has been sadistic since the days of the Borgias. Maybe I don't know enough about modern Catholicism, and there is, after all, self-flagellation to consider . . .

Barleywine said:

I agree. Initiation isn't "conferred," it is "earned."

But . . . I didn't think The Pope has been sadistic since the days of the Borgias. Maybe I don't know enough about modern Catholicism, and there is, after all, self-flagellation to consider . . .

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Well, the Hierophant isn't a Pope, but in divinatory terms he might share some of his attributes. The Hierophant is perhaps the Pope as he should be, and not as he is. Reading the passage in the BoT one could almost imagine Crowley was musing about himself here, as he wrote in the introduction to Magick without Tears that he was very bad at speaking to laymen, understanding that they may need more than the "laisser faire" attitude towards initiates who were expected to do more independently.

Barleywine said:

I agree. Initiation isn't "conferred," it is "earned."

But . . . I didn't think The Pope has been sadistic since the days of the Borgias. Maybe I don't know enough about modern Catholicism, and there is, after all, self-flagellation to consider . . .

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By experience, unfortunately disappointing, i could say that in the most modern initiations systems, such freemasonry, the initiations are conferred, some times also selled, not earned. It's very easy for someone today to be initiated and the rituals have lost all of their ancient seriousness and esotericism. They are just business. And at this point i wonder what card correrspondens better to initiators, freemasons, incumbents and all these "brothers". Always i was feeling and believing that all these "brothers" and their systems are represented by the Emperor, not by the Hierophant, because the Emperor is a card that means structure, rules, hierarchy and also rigidity, conservatism...i find all these modern "initiations" systems too much wordly, i can't find almost nothing esoterical.

MasterJm said:

By experience, unfortunately disappointing, i could say that in the most modern initiations systems, such freemasonry, the initiations are conferred, some times also selled, not earned. It's very easy for someone today to be initiated and the rituals have lost all of their ancient seriousness and esotericism. They are just business. And at this point i wonder what card correrspondens better to initiators, freemasons, incumbents and all these "brothers". Always i was feeling and believing that all these "brothers" and their systems are represented by the Emperor, not by the Hierophant, because the Emperor is a card that means structure, rules, hierarchy and also rigidity, conservatism...i find all these modern "initiations" systems too much wordly, i can't find almost nothing esoterical.

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Absolutely. I should have prefaced my comment with "In the best sense . . ." Many of these modern organizations are "fraternal" as you noted, not "initiated" in the old sense of the word. So yes, they are certainly more of the Emperor than the Heirophant. I once explored joining the OTO but never heard back from the regional leader. If you watch Kubrick's movie "Eyes Wide Shut" you can see what modern exoteric society thinks of them.

closrapexa said:

Well, the Hierophant isn't a Pope, but in divinatory terms he might share some of his attributes. The Hierophant is perhaps the Pope as he should be, and not as he is.

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I was referring to the fact that the Hierophant card was Le Pape in the Marseille deck. He was more-or-less secularized by the occult reinterpretation of the late 19th century.

Barleywine said:

I was referring to the fact that the Hierophant card was Le Pape in the Marseille deck. He was more-or-less secularized by the occult reinterpretation of the late 19th century.

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I guessed as such, I'm just used to the common interpretation of Hierophant as Pope, which ignores the word "Hierophant" completely. I wrote for the edification of our viewers, etc.

Thelema is ultimately sadistic. It isn't concerned with compassion but the accomplishment of one's True Will. It's Nietzschean in this sense:

"We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world." AL 2:21

To Crowley, compassion belongs to planes of illusion. While it may serve a purpose for those less enlightened, for those working toward the accomplishment of the Great Work it's a wrong way of thinking:

"The prophet was again perplexed and troubled; for in his soul was Compassion for all beings. But though his Compassion is a feeling perhaps admirable and necessary for mortals, yet it pertains to the planes of Illusion. It is based on a misapprehension." Old and New Commentaries to Liber AL; AL 2:46; "Old Comment."

If Crowley's life is any indicator, following one's True Will inevitably brings sorrow and pain to other at some point. While this is impossible for anyone to avoid in life, the difference between the Thelemite and the "average" person is the Thelemite derives enjoyment in the suffering of others: "this is our law and the joy of the world." The reason for this is simple, the Thelemite believes they are strong and are being held back by the weak. For this reason the weak should suffer, and ultimately be eradicated if they can't wake to their True Will:

"At present all the strong are being damaged, and their progress hindered by the dead weight of the weak limbs and the missing limbs, the diseased limbs and the atrophied limbs. The Christians to the Lions!" Old and New Commentaries to Liber AL; AL 2:21; "New Comment."

The thing I don't understand is how it's possible for the strong to be held back by the weak?

I'm not trying to stir up anything. It's a sincere attempt to answer MasterJm's question. Ultimately it's my opinion.