The Temperament Experiment

mythos

Teheuti said:
A reading on temperaments through history will show that descriptions of them change over time. "Melancholy," for instance, used to have a very different meaning then it has today.

I really enjoyed the experiment. Thanks.

Mary

What is interesting too is that the ways in which mental 'illness' has been perceived has changed over time. For example, around the time of the interregnum in England (I think ... memory where are you?), melancholia (which is not what we call major or clinical depression, though it was related) was considered to be the 'worst' mental illness because the person, if suicidal, was seen to be knowingly and willingly throwing themselves beyond redemption and into Hell for eternity. In fact, a suicide's family lost all their possessions to the crown as a consequence for denying God's grace (well ... that was the excuse, she says cynically!).

Aural or visual hallucinations, thoughts of reference, and other manifestations of what we would now label as schizophrenia and/or bipolar disorder (depending on the influence of drug and insurance companies) was seen as far less serious (now the most serious), and possibly a Godly gift. After all, the person might really be seeing or hearing God or Christ. In order words, there was/is an element (a large one) of social construction, in the area of mental 'illness', both now and then.

It is a fascinating subject. Wrote a post graduate dissertation on it many decades ago ... hence why the actual timing historically of this older thinking is a tad foggy in my mind. Anyway ... the four humours, temperaments, balances and imbalances, and how we perceive them are inevitably going to change over time because of many factors, including what has occurred during the long history of tarot and it's development, good, bad or indifferent.

mythos:)

Jeepers, I forgot to say that I actually labelled two temperament types with one pip icon. The cups missed out completely in my determinations. What does that say about me????? Don't answer :rolleyes:
 

Melanchollic

Teheuti said:
The way I understand it is that the humours are the fluids in our bodies that result in health or illness depending on their clarity and state of balance. Temperaments are the personality and emotional characteristics that result from any imbalance. Everyone has some imbalance and thus will fall naturally into one of the temperamental types, but stress or illness can cause another humour to dominate and cause a temporary change in temperament.

A reading on temperaments through history will show that descriptions of them change over time. "Melancholy," for instance, used to have a very different meaning then it has today.

I really enjoyed the experiment. Thanks.

Mary


Thanks Mary.

Yes, that is my understanding of the humours/temperaments as well, although the terms are often used interchangablely.

Your point about the descriptions of the temperaments changing over time is true. From the time Hippocrates introduced the terms to their fall from 'medical grace' at the end of the 17th century there was an expected evolution. Generally, they became more well rounded. Originally the Airy Sanguine temper was completely positive and the Earthy Melancholic temper was totally negative.

Sometime before the humours were dismissed from orthodox science they were made part of Roman Catholic doctrine, and have been preserved through the Church.

A great deal of the information available online about the temperaments is through Catholic websites. One of the more amusing ones being this Catholic matchmaking site based on the temperaments:

http://www.catholicmatch.com/

Despite its 'modern' approach, the information on the temperaments is pretty much what it would have been in 1660.



M
 

Melanchollic

A Bit of Interpretation

Melanchollic said:
However, if we look at the most voted for suit for each temperament and its traditional elemental correspondence, we get something quite different from the popular correlations derived from the Golden Dawn and Waite.

Swords = Earth
Cups = Air
Coins = Water
Batons = Fire


A serious incongruence has reared its curious head. })


I think what we are seeing here is how the usual modern interpretations of the four elements are quite different than the traditional ones. Here is a greatly generalized example of what I mean:



[size=+1]Element.....Traditional View...........Modern View

Fire.........dynamic, decisive................(same)
...............impulsive, angry......................


Air......sociable, light-hearted.....intellectual, analytical,
............inconsistent, fickle.........critical, unemotional


Water.....calm, methodical..........emotional, deep-feeling,
.............dependable, dull...............moody, sensitive


Earth......introspective, sensitive......stable, dependable
...............depressed, moody..............stubborn, dull
[/size]




I believe this incongruence can be explained by the massive paradigm shifts brought about in Europe during the ‘Enlightenment’. During that time many of the more speculative and philosophical aspects of western science were pushed aside in favor of the observable/measurable materialist world-view of Descartes and Bacon. Things like astrology and the four elements went from being common to being esoteric. A century or two later, ‘occultists’ attempted to salvage what they could of the old paradigm, and naturally many erroneous ideas arose.

Modern psychology also has changed the way a lot of these ancient ideas are interpreted. While Jung and company has done a lot to ‘legitimize’ these ancient sciences, it had also inevitability reinterpreted them in its own image.


M
 

Cinammon Sue

Confused! Again.

So why exactly did the traditional view of the elements have those meanings, as opposed to some other meanings. Which set of meaning is better?


Sue
 

Melanchollic

Cinammon Sue said:
So why exactly did the traditional view of the elements have those meanings, as opposed to some other meanings. Which set of meaning is better?


Sue


Good Question Sue!

To state it plainly, the modern version of what the four elements mean, as it is presented in popular tarot literature, is incorrect. The actual meanings, starting at least as far back as Aristotle's study of them in On Generation and Corruption, remained specific and constant until the modern era, when lack of knowledge led to errors. The system is in fact rather specific and exacting, with the four elements displaying specific patterns based on their formation from the four powers (hot, cold, dry, wet). There is little room for subjective speculation. The modern versions can't possibly mean what they are suppose to, because the whole system collapses from incongruence.

I think the first thing that confuses modern people about the four classical elements is their names; Fire, Air, Water, Earth. John Opsopaus writes,


"If we want to understand the Elements as spiritual entities, we must go deeper than metaphors based on material substances; we must grasp their essences. This was first accomplished by Aristotle in the century following Empedocles, who based his analysis on the four Powers (Dunameis) or Qualities, which were probably first enumerated by Empedocles. This double pair of opponent Powers, Warm versus Cool and Dry versus Moist, are the key to a deeper understanding of the Elements. Like the Elements, they must be understood as spiritual forces rather than material qualities (warm, cold, dry, moist)."


The names of the classical elements, Fire, Air, Water, Earth are not literally describing actual fire, air, water. earth, but certain metaphysical qualities, which describe specific tendencies in the way energies operate in the cosmos, and how these energies manifest in the mundane world. Until this point is clearly grasped, one can not truely understand the nature of the elements.

Aristotle's study of the elements in On Generation and Corruption - Book II is essential to understanding them. Here is an online version:


http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/a/aristotle/corruption/book2.html



One easy way I’ve found to begin to get your head around the elements is by looking at the traditional attributes of reaction time and duration.




[size=+1]Elemental Fire has a fast reaction time, and long duration.

Elemental Air has a fast reaction time, and short duration.

Elemental Water has a slow reaction time, and a short duration.

Elemental Earth has a slow reaction time, and a long duration.
[/size]




In the fiery character of the Choleric, the fast reaction time is manifested as impulsiveness, decisiveness, quickness to anger, and mental quickness at grasping ideas. The long duration manifests as vindictiveness, ability to see those quick decision through, a sense of pride and honor, and a need to control. This makes Cholerics the aggressive, controlling people they are, and they are the people who rise up to be leaders.

In the airy character of the Sanguine, the fast reaction time is manifested also as impulsiveness, quickness at grasping ideas, enthusiasm and wit. The short duration means that the Sanguine won’t hold grudges however. It also gives the Sanguine the tendency to get bored easily, and be fickle and restless.

In the watery character of the Phlegmatic, the slow reaction time manifests as calmness, frugality, and indecisiveness. The short duration makes the Phlegmatic lazy, timid, hesitant and unambitious.

In the earthy character of the Melancholic, the slow reaction time manifests as cautiousness, indecision, irresolution and being withdrawn. The long duration makes the melancholic introspective, deep, penetrating, unforgiving, and a tendency to dwell in the past.



M
 

Cinammon Sue

Thanks Melanchollic.

Mr. Opsopaus' essay is very interesting, as is your 'reaction time/duration' information. All this really makes a strong case for doing your research, and finding out where an idea comes from, and what it really means. :)

Kwaw said:
.... it really doesn't matter.

Kwaw


jmd said:
"Positives: Ambitious, Dynamic, Decisive, Independent.

Negatives: Impulsive, Short-Tempered, Proud, Dictatorial"​

All of those positives could equally apply, in my view, to the four suits, simply in different fields of life. For example, an ambitious, dynamic, decisive and independent person focussed on the financial world is likely to reflect a Coin card. Conversely and equally for the negative traits, and as an example those traits applied within the context of a church or religious retreat setting may very well reflect a Cup card.


If Kwaw and jmd are right, wouldn't this make the Tarot a fairly impotent tool for divination. Elemental associations of direction, time, locations, (and of course reaction time and duration) are extremely useful for accuracy. The Queen of Cups (I use Cups for Water) helped me locate my lost braclet behind the washing machine. Without that 'water' connection, I'd never have made the link! Now I'm confused again! :(


Sue
 

Melanchollic

Jmd explains his position in an excellent essay on the four elements and the suits of the Tarot, which can be read here:

http://association.tarotstudies.org/newsletters/news48.html


Definitely a must read, although I’m not sure I’d agree with all his conclusions.

Cinnamon Sue said:
If Kwaw and jmd are right, wouldn't this make the Tarot a fairly impotent tool for divination? Elemental associations of direction, time, locations, (and of course reaction time and duration) are extremely useful for accuracy. and duration) are extremely useful for accuracy.

Good point.

To divine with Tarot requires us to symbolically represent the world through a deck of cards. Momentarily excluding the ‘Majors’, we have four suits. If we wish to divine with these cards, this four-fold division, by necessity must be the world we live in, meaning all the possible outcomes of all the possible problems a querent could possibly have. We can not answer a querent's question with anything less. The suits by necessity must take on the role of a four-fold allegory of everything. The historical meanings of the four suit emblems are important, but only so far as they give us a general indication of how the 'energy' of the suit operates, then through the law of correspondences we can make valid and correct associations to all manner of things. For example, the Coins may represent the 'merchant class', but this in no way means the suit of Coins must always represent "money matters". There is a historical association to 'merchants' and the phlegmatic temperament. When we understand the logic of this association, we are then free to see beyond the surface and understand how this watery quality specifically relates to any and all things that partake of its basic characteristics - moist, cold, contracting, uniting, flexible, slow reacting and short of duration. We can see clearly, and really understand why the Coin can accurately represent things as varied as shyness, good administration, indifference to relationships, being over-compromising, the Northern direction, the Winter season, the period from midnight to dawn, the feminine gender, and all manner of associations which can be used to great effect in divination. If you see how it all starts on the metaphysical level, how the energies behind everything operate; expanding, contracting, separating, uniting, how it builds outward, taking in every possible phenomenon in creation. If you understand how the energies of each element can operate on all the possible levels, in every possible manifestation, and in every possible situation, and if you can, through the law of correspondences, correctly relate these energies to the cards, then correctly interpret them, you have a symbolic system that is both all encompassing, and as Sue said, amazingly precise.


:heart: M
 

jmd

Thanks for those kind words, Melanchollic - I'm frankly never sure how what I write is taken (or even read!).

Cinammon Sue writes that if "Kwaw and jmd are right, wouldn't this make the Tarot a fairly impotent tool for divination". I do not see why that follows at all. For example (to use some of Umbrae's suggestions), toothpicks can be used for divination, as can raindrops on a on a car's windscreen. With divination, what I would have thought occurs is an opening to the symbolic details that are for the reading-at-hand pertinent... even if this 'contradicts' one's acquired or accepted meanings for a card-at-hand.

For example, finding something lost in the wash may as easily have been found by focussing on the Wheel of Fortune, Temperance or Star card (in part depending on the deck), or even the Knight of Swords! What is important in the divinatory aspect is that one brings to the light of awareness the relevant detail.

If one is more fixed with elemental attributions, then of course the preferred correlation may direct one's thoughts to the element - whichever element is preferred for water - whether this be swords, coins, batons or cups!.

This of course takes us in directions other than the Temperament Experiment was bringing to light. What is interesting, nonetheless, is that if one reads about the four humours and temperaments in more ancient form, and then takes more-or-less typical 1980s (onwards) explications of how the four elements reflects particular temperaments, there is incongruity... which to take for one's studies? I would suggest all... these can then instruct the reading-at-hand by a deeper characterological understanding, without necessarily tying it to either element or suit implement.

The point I was raising earlier is that the suits are not in and of themselves element, and neither are they, in and of themselves, temperament or humour. This does not prevent us from finding value in developing an understanding of temperamental inclinations and the ways in which these may be able emerge in a specific reading.
 

Melanchollic

Early and Probable Connections of Elements and Suits

The earliest known written connection between card suits and the four elements is in La Signification de l’ancien jeu des chartes pythagorique (1582) by Jean Gosselin.


[size=+1]Tiles ...............Batons..........Earth

Clover .............Coins.............Water

Hearts .............Cups.............Air

Pikes ...............Swords..........Fire[/size]



If Swords and Batons were switched, this would match our poll results.


This is from Michael Hurst's website:

http://www.geocities.com/cartedatri.../1540-1739.html

Scroll down to 1582.



These are also the correlations used by J.C. Flornoy, as elaborated here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=72455



If you approach the suit/element problem from the consideration of the four temperaments, which is certainly the way a medieval or renaissance person would have understood the four elements, this, IMO is the only set of correspondences that actually work logically. It unfortunately does require one to 'let go' of most of the modern misconceptions about the nature of the four elements that have developed over the years. Such as Water being the sensitive, emotional element. Actually, Earth is the sensitive emotional element, hence Earth being the cause of the melancholic temperament. Water gives rise to the Phlegmatic temperament; calm, tolerant, organized, dull, monotonous, conservative, and frugal. Air as representative of intellect is also a modern misinterpretation. Air is playful, pleasure seeking, sociable, flighty, restless, scatterbrained, quite accurately described in the modern term, "air-head". Fire and the choleric temperament are the quick thinkers, while the melancholic is the careful, deep thinking philosopher of the group.

This ordering, 1) Swords/Fire, 2) Cups/Air, 3) Coins/Water, 4) Batons/Earth, is also the correct order of Aristotle's natural rotation of the elements.



In another thread Le Pendu points out another important consideration to this order,

le pendu said:
I was reading the rules for an electronic version of the game of Tarot, and it mentions that when drawing to see who will be Dealer:

"The lowest card designates the first Dealer. A Trump is higher than any suit card. If there is equality, the following priority order between the suits is applied: Spades - Hearts - Diamonds - Clubs. Therefore the Ace of Clubs always designates the first Dealer. The player who takes the Excuse must choose another card."​


Does that translate to:
Swords>Cups>Coins>Batons?

Is this the generally agreed to "order" of the suits?


Again, we have some period associations to at least three of the tarot suit emblems in a period woodcut, published by Nicholas Le Rouge, Troyes, c1495.

Humourbeasts.jpg


The associations here are:



[size=+1]FIRE.........Choleric.........Lion...........Sword

AIR..........Sanguine.......Monkey......Leisure (hawking)

WATER.....Phlegmatic....Sheep.........Money (coin purse)

EARTH.....Melancholic.....Pig.............Staff[/size]








:love: M