reconsidering a cathar connection

foolish

personally, i do not read tarot cards. so i don't know how this will affect one's readings. it is my understanding that people use not only the written descriptions of what the cards are supposed to mean, but also their intuition in interpreting the symbols. so it is possible that seeing the images in a different context altogether may offer more insight into what the cards have to say.

part two is devoted to the interpretation of the symbolism of the cards. in the cases where the cards have both historical and their spiritual references, both have been addressed. (in some ways, i think this has been a point of confusion for the scholarly assessment of the cathar connection. that is, most people feel that if the cathars were involved in the creation of the tarot, then all of the cards should reflect the ideals of catharism or dualism in order to be considered a valid theory. however, what if it wasn't just the spiritual messages of catharism which were intended to be incorporated into the tarot? what if there were important historical facts from that period of time which were also meant to be preserved? in that case, the symbols on the cards would have to reflect both historical and spiritual meaning. some of the cards, for example, were probably meant to represent personalities, just as like the lovers was supposed to do in the visconti deck. this opens up another perspective of the cards, and makes it still sensible that not every single card is supposed to convey cathar ideals).
 

Bernice

foolish, please don't take this as a put-down in any way, but don't you think it would be far better to re-think the title of your book? It's very mis-leading as it suggests that the work has some verifiable historical basis.

As you have put a lot of work into describing the trumps card-by-card, I think that may be the focus point that people would be interested in. There is a great dearth of books with card meanings specific to the marseille decks - such a one would help fill a void in the market.


Bee :)
 

foolish

hmm... coming up with a title is obviously a big part of writing a book. if it doesn't catch the reader's attention, it probably won't warrant a second look. what would you suggest?
 

Bernice

hmm...... a title. Off the top of my head;

"Reading the Marseille Tarot with the Cathars."

Rather blunt, but highlights the content.

Having a think..

Bee :)
 

foolish

perhaps, but that might give the impression that i am attempting to show people how to read the cards - which i am not. since the bulk of the book involves not only the interpretation of the cards but also the history of the cathars in languedoc, i believe it is their story that is central to its theme. and i don't want to alienate those interested in that history by presenting the book as mainly a way to read the tarot. i appreciate your suggestions, though. believe me, coming up with the title and subtitle was not an easy job!
 

Bernice

Help = languedoc?

Bee :)

eta: languedoc = A place.

Another attempt at a Title.

The Cathar Story and the Marseille Tarot.
 

foolish

languedoc - named after the language spoken there (oc = yes; thus, langue d' oc) is the area of (now) southern france where most of the cathars were living during the 13th century. it was the location of the albigensian crusade, where the pope (innocent III) and the king of france attacked not only the heretics there, but also the nobles who tollerated their presence. in the end, the entire territories of languedoc, including those of count raymond VI of toulouse, whose controlled more land than that of the king, were taken over by france.
 

foolish

now that there seems to be a little pause in the activity here, i feel like i can come up for air, as it seems that i have pressed myself to make quick replies to the many posts on this thread up to now in order to keep things moving along. the downside to this is that i may not have adequately addressed each point.

having said that, i took the opportunity to go back to the beginning of this thread and see where we started from, as many different posts have lead us on what seems like divergent paths. although i don't feel that rehashing every post is in anyone's interest, i feel it may be worthwhile to review some of the basics.

to begin with, it seems that i may have made the wrong choice of where to present the question of the cathar-tarot connection. but, not being familiar with the content of each area, i thought that it belonged in the history section for the simple fact that the theory involves the historical events of the time. i appologize for any confusion.

on the first page of this thread, mary has responded to my initial claim:
If I get you right, you are saying that the Cathars could have devised secret meanings for images that were already common within the non-Cathar culture. However, you don't have proof of even one example where any images were used this way among the Cathars in either France or Italy.
if we are expecting proof of cathar involvement by looking for their distinct use of the images of the tarot trumps, we are setting ourselves up to fail. the fact is that the cathars did not have their own set of symbols or iconography as seen in other groups like the rosecrusians, the templars, masons, etc. in fact, cathars discouraged the use of icons, images and symbols altogether. any use of images would have been used in the traditional sense, since the cathars considered themselves to be "good christians", following the example of christ. what distinguished them from the orhtodox church was in their perception and philosophy of christianity. therefore, we should expect that they would interpret the christian images of the time in a different way than the traditional orthodox view. it is up to us, then, to think in terms of how the cathars may have viewed these common images in order to discover their meaning.
 

foolish

it also seems like i opened up a can of worms when i asked,
what simpler theory you are refering to that is backed up by historical fact and that also explains each and every card.
at this point, i got "broadsided" so to speak, and was asked to shift away from a discussion about the cathars to considering some of the other tarot theories out there. fair enough. i brought it on.

it seems fair to say that there are a few things we know about the history of the tarot which most people agree upon. evidence from existing cards and writings, for example, tell us the approximate date and location of its first introduction in europe. researchers have been ablt to find an abundant source of images similar to those used in the tarot. but that's where where the hard evidence stops. it is in the interpretaion of these images that we are having discussions like this. if we are to agree with dummett, that the trumps were just another suit added to an existing deck of cards and that it didn't have any other meaning than taking tricks, then we need not go any further. but many of us have looked into other possibilities.

the use of common themes was the way art was presented in the middle ages. but the actual meanings remain open to interpretation. even if we are to assume that these images always should be interpreted in their "traditional" sense, we find discrepancies. for example, let's look at the essay by vitali http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=5, since it was referenced earlier.

although i don't intend to go through each and every card, nor thinkg it's necessary to make my point, let's use the fool as an example. is the fool in the tarot a lowly beggar because similar imges can be found that place him in that light? or is he an evolved spiritual being since, as vitali has noted, he has been placed next to the world card, or that there are references from the bible like: "If any man among you seems to be wise, let him become a fool that he may be wise" (1 corinthians 3:18-19) or "fools for christ's sake" (1 coninthians 4:10)? there are other references which can be thought of in that light - in 13th century italy, wandering preachers were often referred to as "bizoccone" or "holy fools." even some of the symbolism of the images noted by vitali can be construed differently. for example, he says that in some decks, the fool is shown in nakedness, and quotes ripa as saying, "Foolishness is depicted naked, because the fool shows his defects to all, without any shame." however, many of the figures in medieval art were depicted naked for a different reason - to represent purity and innocence, as in pictures of venus or angels.

in addition, his example of the feather worn in the fools cap is interpreted as "Feathers were given to Mercury, because, when speaking - as he was the God - his words used to fly through the air, as if they had wings.... The feathers on the head of the Fool thus represent the very elements which the fool is lacking in, that is speed and intellect, besides suitable words." this only makes sense if we assume the lowly position of the fool. but why does the feather's significance need to be twisted around into what the fool lacks? why couldn't it mean what is on face value, indicating that the fool possesses the qualities of the feather? (the feather, as a symbol of wings, can also be taken as a sign of being close to an angel). the answer is because it does not fit into his picture of who the fool is. the same can be said of his interpretaion of what the stick the fool is carrying really represents. although he can find references that seem to support his opinions, the fool's staff can also be seen to be one which holds his leather pouch - something cathar perfects were known to carry around with them, which usually contained copies of the new testament.

i don't think we need to go through each card and point out similar divergent uses of images and symbols. the point is that they are often used to support our own preconceptions and theories. (and i'm quite certain that i will be accused of exactly the same fault). saying that the tarot is a system of moral instruction, for example, thus becomes an exercise in presenting the associatted images in a similar light to what our theory demands.

what seems to have been an important factor in "testing" these theories is their ability to be all-inclusive to all the cards in the deck. and this seems to have been the problem with some theories like mokley's triumph pattern and betts' revelation concept (as pointed out by o'neill).

the bottom line is that the identification of similar images found from common or traditional sources does not in itself prove their meaning in the tarot. it's all open to interpretaion. in vilali's own words, the tarot presents itself as a riddle to those who do not succumb to drummett's conclusions. and the purpose of a riddle is to be solved. by defiinition, a riddle consists of a question or puzzle presented in such a way as to require a level of ingenuity in order discover its answer. it usually involves cunning, deceptive or misleading qualities. in other words, it's meaning is rarely apparent on a superficial or obvious level. in the same way, the tarot, as a riddle to be solved, is open to interpretation and discussion. otherwise, we would not be having this discussion in the first place, as all information would be in and everyone would be in agreement.

what i have presented in writing my book is just another way of looking at this ambiguous and mysterious set of cards. i think it would be extremely arrogant and presumptious of anyone to assume that they have a lock on the truth and dismiss all others who disagree.