foolish
Perfect, from the italian, "perfecti".
reconsidering a cathar connection
Huck
foolish said:
Look at the 48 cards ... the link, that I'd already, given ... and you'll see, that everywhere is a sort of heraldic sign, at each card
http://trionfi.com/m/d00360
... there are links at the page, you can see all 48 cards ...
He stands at ground with ceramic or stone, the others stand on "dirty ground"
Bernice
Many thanks foolish. Considering that the perfects had no contact with the opposite sex I'm surprised they were targeted - no offspring!foolish said:
What is it about the Fool trump that appears to have a Cathar influence?
Bee
foolish
yeah, the ban on procreation seems a bit confusing, as it would seem that it made the sect self-destructive. however, since only a select number of cathars were perfects, this allowed for the others to carry on. dualism (the main philosophy of the cathars, borowed from the earlier christian sects such as the manicheans, taught that the world was created by two gods - one good, who created the soul, and one evil (the devil), who created matter. since all matter is evil, the body is therefore also evil - something which in itself labeled them as heretics, since they denied the orthodox idea of christ becoming incarnate in a human body, as that would mean he adopted and evil form. man could reclaim his pure nature only upon death, when he was released from his body, and when he would be reunited with god. so the idea of bringing another soul into this material world was viewed by the perfects as a sin. this may also help to explain why there were many reports of them willingly jumping into the flames.
the main heretical theme of the fool can be found in his image, which looks like someone who is wandering in disguise (similar to those cathar fugitives who had to flee southren france during the inquisition's persecution of heretics) with the church (symbolized by the dog, as explained above) at his heals. he holds a bag on his pole and carries nothing else on his journey. (cathar perfects were known to carry a copy of the new testement or the book of john in a leather pouch). his head is tilted up, as if he is looing up to god.
other interesting images can be found in the cards such as:
1) the presence of the popess (a seemingly blatant afront to the real pope).
2) the "dualistic" appearance of the devil's image, and
3) the replacement of the image of jesus in the world card with an amorphous person. (the typical representations of jesus "in majesty" sitting in the middle of the four apostles was a common theme in medieval art).
also, we need to ask how some of the other images can be explained within other contexts, such as the moral teaching theory or the orthodox theory. for example, the presence of the two children in the sun, the presence of the dogs in the moon, the animals in the wheel, and the body parts in death. if we are to assume that all the images in the tarot had meaning and were not just the random results of artistic imagination, then we should be able to explain them all. we also need to ask ourselves why they were changed from the earlier decks. wouldn't it have been easier to just copy the existing cards?
in addition (and an important part of my theory), i believe that the tarot didn't simply serve as a sytem of preserving the cathar spiritual messages, but also had important historical information as well. therefore, some of the images were reserved to represent certain historical persons and events from the time. (we should keep in mind that the idea of having real people represented in the cards seems to have been done in the visconti decks). the emperor, for example, could easily refer to count raymond VI of toulouse; the pope, innocent III; and the charioteer, simon montfort, leader of the crusaders.
yes, of course, this is an interpretation, but the bottom line is that every single theory of the tarot incorporates a degree of interpretation - even if it has us believe that the images represent their traditional symbols at face value. even if one proposes that it was just a simple game of cards based on the fact that it was played as one, this doesn't negate the possibility that they were also used for other purposes like instruction, as was common for decks of cards in the middle ages.
the main heretical theme of the fool can be found in his image, which looks like someone who is wandering in disguise (similar to those cathar fugitives who had to flee southren france during the inquisition's persecution of heretics) with the church (symbolized by the dog, as explained above) at his heals. he holds a bag on his pole and carries nothing else on his journey. (cathar perfects were known to carry a copy of the new testement or the book of john in a leather pouch). his head is tilted up, as if he is looing up to god.
other interesting images can be found in the cards such as:
1) the presence of the popess (a seemingly blatant afront to the real pope).
2) the "dualistic" appearance of the devil's image, and
3) the replacement of the image of jesus in the world card with an amorphous person. (the typical representations of jesus "in majesty" sitting in the middle of the four apostles was a common theme in medieval art).
also, we need to ask how some of the other images can be explained within other contexts, such as the moral teaching theory or the orthodox theory. for example, the presence of the two children in the sun, the presence of the dogs in the moon, the animals in the wheel, and the body parts in death. if we are to assume that all the images in the tarot had meaning and were not just the random results of artistic imagination, then we should be able to explain them all. we also need to ask ourselves why they were changed from the earlier decks. wouldn't it have been easier to just copy the existing cards?
in addition (and an important part of my theory), i believe that the tarot didn't simply serve as a sytem of preserving the cathar spiritual messages, but also had important historical information as well. therefore, some of the images were reserved to represent certain historical persons and events from the time. (we should keep in mind that the idea of having real people represented in the cards seems to have been done in the visconti decks). the emperor, for example, could easily refer to count raymond VI of toulouse; the pope, innocent III; and the charioteer, simon montfort, leader of the crusaders.
yes, of course, this is an interpretation, but the bottom line is that every single theory of the tarot incorporates a degree of interpretation - even if it has us believe that the images represent their traditional symbols at face value. even if one proposes that it was just a simple game of cards based on the fact that it was played as one, this doesn't negate the possibility that they were also used for other purposes like instruction, as was common for decks of cards in the middle ages.
foolish
by the way, does anyone know what the initials V.T. on teh chariot's shield stand for in the conver deck?
Bernice
Are you interpreting the sequence of the trumps as the Cathars spiritual message?
The VT on the chariots' shield = I have a vauge recall that this has been mentioned elsewhere in another thread.
Bee
Yves Le Marseillais
Vt On Shield On Chariot Arcana Conver Deck
Hello all,
Normaly this are engraver initials letters familly name and surname.
Unless one prefer "mystical or esoteriacl" interpretations.
Up to anybody.
Into the Wild we are free.... until our natural limits.
Yves Le Marseillais
foolish said:
Hello all,
Normaly this are engraver initials letters familly name and surname.
Unless one prefer "mystical or esoteriacl" interpretations.
Up to anybody.
Into the Wild we are free.... until our natural limits.
Yves Le Marseillais
foolish
yes, i understand that these initials are normally left for the card maker or engraver, but VT doesn't fit with conver, so who is it? does any one know?
as far the sequence goes, i'm not so sure it's the order of the cards that's the top priority, as the order of the virtues, for example, has often been changed. it may be that the card's number is significant to its symbol, as numerology played an important role in many art forms in the middle ages. the fact that the magician is 1, the emperor, 4, the pope, 5, the wheel, 10, etc. may not be left to chance, but may have significant meaning in and of itself.
also, the fact that the lower numbers of the deck have less "trick taking" power in the game of tarot suggests a scale of importance to the cards. in this case, certain personalities "trump" others, and the more spiritual cards at the end of the deck trump the mundane figures of this world.
as far the sequence goes, i'm not so sure it's the order of the cards that's the top priority, as the order of the virtues, for example, has often been changed. it may be that the card's number is significant to its symbol, as numerology played an important role in many art forms in the middle ages. the fact that the magician is 1, the emperor, 4, the pope, 5, the wheel, 10, etc. may not be left to chance, but may have significant meaning in and of itself.
also, the fact that the lower numbers of the deck have less "trick taking" power in the game of tarot suggests a scale of importance to the cards. in this case, certain personalities "trump" others, and the more spiritual cards at the end of the deck trump the mundane figures of this world.
Debra
foolish said:
We seem not to know.
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=88191&highlight=vt+initials
foolish
thanks for that. since no one seems to know, i feel ok about being left to my own assumptions. could this refer then, to simon montfort, the leader of the french crusaders during the albigensain crusade? he was acknowledged by the pope at the fourth lateran council of 1215 and given the title of "ruler of all languedoc and lord of toulouse," officially replacing the authority of count raymond VI of touloue - which made him, aka, Viscompte de Toulouse (VT). is this too much of a stretch of the imagination, or could it be a hint as to the true identity of the charioteer within its historical context? i'll reserve final judgment until someone can offer a better answer.
