Meaning & Image

HoneyBea said:

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but when I am designing my cards (Tarot Bella) I decide what I want the image to portray, so the meaning is in my head and then I make the image to show that meaning, now others see more in the image than I originally did, and that is a good thing, but they also see the meaning.

Have I confused things further

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No. I was so confused anyway that it would take a lot more than that ! I see what you mean. But that takes us back to - would you have portrayed the same thing differently if you had lived in 1800 ? 1950 ? 1918 ?? I feel you would have had a different world picture to work with - like a different palette. If THAT makes sense; it is late at night for me.....

The power of images: studies in the history and theory of response by David Freedberg is a very good eye opener if you have a bit of back ground in art and very relevant to this discussion. If you are enjoying this topic I suggest you check it out for one intelligent mans take.

Sometimes it is not about "meanings" at all, but about how you respond to a image. It is easy to memorize or learn what others tell us this or that image/icon means. But rather then only relying on meanings look at how they or you respond to the card or image and ask yourself why.

I have a tendency of tracing meanings forward or backward through time and trying to understand why these changes came about. I rarely find out definitively why, but I have fun tracing them and putting my spin on "why" and it helps me understand the progression of a card. Most changes are big jumps. They are not often subtle.

Meanings change with time, wars, and ideologies. Meanings change across cultures within the same era. There are so few cross cultural/time iconic images that we can count them easily.

I wonder how many people outside our circle and those of scholars who studies include these things know what pomegranate, corn, wheat, sickles, lily's red roses, dogs or water etc, traditionally represent or their meanings? Most of us here see these things as obvious. They are not.

gregory said:

No. I was so confused anyway that it would take a lot more than that ! I see what you mean. But that takes us back to - would you have portrayed the same thing differently if you had lived in 1800 ? 1950 ? 1918 ?? I feel you would have had a different world picture to work with - like a different palette. If THAT makes sense; it is late at night for me.....

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A question not possible to answer- but the reverse can be.
Did anyone from the 15th century make images that fit with today's advances in technology?
Yes Leonardo did - like Helicopter.

Moderndayruth your take on the C.A.R.G.O. cult made me giggle- how true is that take- we look back and decide on the level of civilisation from our standpoint. To some groups today's society is not civilised at all. We may live in large conglomerates without the city wall- but that is were the meaning stops now.

Helen I am mulling over your take on painted images that you had meaning for and then painted to show meaning. Do you think those extra things, that other people have seen within the image are actually there or laid upon the image by the other persons perception?

Gregory your 'different palette' is a very good analogy- and comes with what Kwaw said about the Swastika. The Germans took the positive image (of course they would) and their actions turned it into a negative- so the palette now is very different. Even the Isle of Man regularly considers whether they should change their flag, because of this. Stilll have not as far as I know.
Oh it is very good to have a thread that is absorbing on my boring Sunday, to contemplate. It is like a big take out feed when you are eating lettuce all week.
~Rosanne

gregory said:

No. I was so confused anyway that it would take a lot more than that ! I see what you mean. But that takes us back to - would you have portrayed the same thing differently if you had lived in 1800 ? 1950 ? 1918 ?? I feel you would have had a different world picture to work with - like a different palette. If THAT makes sense; it is late at night for me.....

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Absolutely, we are influence but what is going on around us there is no doubt about that, and by how we stand within the community.

Thanks Crowned one for the David Freedberg note. I see that he is very interested in what is called Art and Neuroscience.
This is...
Over the past few years, scientists have joined forces with philosophers in integrating current issues in cognitive science and philosophy of mind in the fields of aesthetics and art theory, suggesting new strategies for understanding the relationship between art and cognition. In doing so, they have initiated new hypothesis and developed conceptual tools for exploring fundamental psychological and cognitive processes in relation to the arts, from classical art forms to avant-garde innovations.

One view is Ramachandrans, who says this...
"The purpose of art, surely, is not merely to depict or represent reality – for that can be accomplished very easily with a camera – but to enhance, transcend, or indeed even to distort reality. … What the artist tries to do (either consciously or unconsciously) is to not only capture the essence of something but also to amplify it in order to more powerfully activate the same neural mechanisms that would be activated by the original object."

Although I can see this in Tarot- back before Camera in Tarot's birth this could not be the argument, I would think. The idea is interesting though- are Tarot images distortions of reality to more powerfully show meaning?

~Rosanne

Rosanne said:

Helen I am mulling over your take on painted images that you had meaning for and then painted to show meaning. Do you think those extra things, that other people have seen within the image are actually there or laid upon the image by the other persons perception?

~Rosanne

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I think I may see one area of symbolism that is in an object while others see a whole host of possibilities — take my Strength Card in Tarot Bella, I have given the woman Pearl Earrings and to me in this context they represented

Her ear is adorned with a pearl earring, showing the wisdom she has gained from understanding her baser instincts.

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... in other words "Pearls of Wisdom" however a white pearl can also symbolise purity, honesty, harmony. Some may even say that its glowing white orbness ( is there such a word) reminds them of the Moon. It is a natural gift of nature, so it is not man made, therefore it is beyond man's improvement — could it be seen as a gift then, the fact that a grain of grit can be transformed into an object of beauty, perhaps indicates a spiritual transformation.

So although I only hone in on one element perhaps all the others are there and it is how we perceive them that colours our translations.

Any good?

HoneyBea said:

I think I may see one area of symbolism that is in an object while others see a whole host of possibilities — take my Strength Card in Tarot Bella, I have given the woman Pearl Earrings and to me in this context they represented ... in other words "Pearls of Wisdom" however a white pearl can also symbolise purity, honesty, harmony. Some may even say that its glowing white orbness ( is there such a word) reminds them of the Moon. It is a natural gift of nature, so it is not man made, therefore it is beyond man's improvement — could it be seen as a gift then, the fact that a grain of grit can be transformed into an object of beauty, perhaps indicates a spiritual transformation.

So although I only hone in on one element perhaps all the others are there and it is how we perceive them that colours our translations.

Any good?

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I like it a lot
Btw, my first association on pearl is :"It's the wounded oyster that mends its shell with the pearl..."

Is your card any good? I think it is and the more I look at it- it affects me.
In that card you have the exact bones of the RWS- but it is more effective for me than the RWS- because it shows self mastery through love as having worked- not the possibility of it working. So it is more positive to me.
I cannot exactly say why I see this shift- the size of the Lion? The calmness of the woman? The relaxed pose? The more realistic Lion as opposed to a lion that looks like an emblem of the British Empire? RWS has the feel of a Rampart Lion and your one does not? The rose rather than a noose of flowers? These are all subtle changes really- but for me you have done what Riccardo ends his first post with....

RiccardoLS said:

What I wanted to say... is that we do not discover or learn the relationship between image and meaning: we *build* it.

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I think you have built it well HoneyBea.
~Rosanne

Rosanne said:

Originally Posted by RiccardoLS
What I wanted to say... is that we do not discover or learn the relationship between image and meaning: we *build* it.

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I think you have built it well HoneyBea.
~Rosanne

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Thanks Rosanne and I do think what RiccardoLS posted carries so much truth.

I was talking to someone that is interesting about this subject of Image and meaning. She is a very good photographer I think and this is what she said...

Meaning - visual or other - is initially based on experience. We build meaning from our experience and knowledge.
But we can change the meaning of symbols/images by changing perspective, which we may do through learning, attitude, viewpoint, knowledge. Time does this as well.
Look at what the camera does. It's a good analogy. I can change an image countless ways by switching a few settings or going back at another time in the day.
Nothing is static. Everything can be changed.

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I think this exploration about building the relationship between image and meaning is exciting. I have over the years tried various ways to express what Tarot is to me in cards. I can see a progression as I have grown in understanding. It is strange that the decks that I prefer to use- with a few exceptions are the older ones that have not changed in some hundreds of years. I have just realised this is static- and I should be using other decks to expand my understanding of Tarot. That does not mean I have to stop using my favourites- but just be open to new ideas of how others have expanded their knowledge as well. One of the images that does not seem to change much is the Hanged Man- it would be interesting to see how this could be built upon. Like as in the Strength card that has so many different forms, does the Hanged Man have the same variety? Can it be changed or challenged? If you could would it be accepted by the Tarotists?
~Rosanne