Can't See the Wood For The Trees!

Rosanne

venicebard said:
It is not the Emperor, I can tell you that: Emperor and Empress are happier where I put them, on equal levels (at leo and sagittary, respectively, of the wheel alef), with Justice at its proper station above (aries).
<snip>
Now if you mean "Aries= heh" in the 1st sentence above, then I would tell you that it is probably based on (what I call) the exoteric arrangement using alef-bet (and SY) order, in which case I would presume that the natural alignment of alef-bet and trumps be used, with heh-the-4th-letter at IIII L'Emperor and so on

Thanks VeniceBard- you made me think again. I think I am not looking for a tree at all! Maybe it is a cube like my GGF's one. I was looking at the majors (as I am always doing like an obsessive) If you look at the majors there are 6 on thrones, with one standing on his (Le diable) So I made those throned into the six faces of the cube. On opposite sides 3 + 4 5 + 15 -top is Justice 8 and bottom is La Papessa 2; in the centre of this cube(if the cube was see through) is 10 the Wheel at the Sun point.
Imagine the cube has a pole with the Zodiac winding down it, starting with Aries- With the pole's top under the face of Justice at Saturn and it's base on top of La Papessa the Moon.
The cube is divided into 1/3 's each third is governed by the Elements, bottom third is governed by no number 13 Death, and the middle third by No number Le Mat 0- the Fool Aleph- Air (As I crawl away and hide from Kwaw, and eating my hat) The top third is Fire (Maybe Le Bateleur is a dentist lol), but not knowing any better I had better give fire to The Sun.
So the Zodiac goes
Card order
1. Le Bateleur= Aries(Other than He's NO.1 and Aries so is Aries)
6. Le Amore= Taurus (well love's the beast that drives it all)
7. Chariot= Gemini (The Horses twins of Personality and drive)
9. Hermit= Cancer (maybe thats why he has a shell on his back?)
11. La Force= Leo(Thats the most obvious)
12. Le Pendu=Virgo (Hanging around waiting to weigh your grain???)
14. La Temperance=Libra ( getting fluid in Balance?)
16. La Maison Dieu/Tower=Scorpio (Antares the dragons heart/tongue??)
17. La Stella/Star= Sagittarius (She can't decide which teapot??)
18. La Lune/Moon= Capricorn(Winter Solstice or those dogs are goats)
20. Judgement= Aquaruis ( here is a tough one!- judged on the water/World?)
21. Le Monde/World= Pisces (Do not have a problem looking at the wreath)

See, everything looks forced when I apply it all to Kabalah- but I might try Emblemata- er-ing it with Torah quotes. Oh well onward as ever. ~Rosanne

Rosanne

Well I am brainless! Or of little Brain like Winnie. I have forced the Hebrew Alphabet into astrological sequence- but it does not look like a Tree now. The Kabalah doesn't look like Tarot now. So I am back to square one- or is that cube one lol.
Here is my Alpha-Tau list I am not going to try to put this on 22 paths, my little brain could not stand it.
0.....Le Mat/Aleph/Air
1.....Le Bateleur/Beit/Aries
11....La Papesse/Gimel/Moon
111..L’Imperatrice/Daleth/Venus
1V....L’Empereur/He/Mars
V.....Le Pape/Waw/Mercury
V1....L’Amoureux/Zayin/Taurus
V11..Le Chariot/Heth/Gemini
V111..La Justice/Teth/Saturn
V1111.L’Eremite/Yod/Cancer
X.......La Fortuna/Kaph/Sun
X1....La Force/Lamed/Leo
X11..Le Pendu/Mem/Water
X111..La Mort/Nun/Virgo
X1V...La Temperance/Samekh/Libra
XV.....Le Diable/Ayin/Jupiter
XV1...La Maison Dieu/Peh/Scorpio
XV11..L’Etoile/Tsadhe/Sagittarius
XV111..La Lune/Qoph/Capricorn
X1X.....Le Soleil/Resh/Aquarius
XX......Le Judgement/Shin/Fire
XX1....Le Monde/Tau/Pisces
Years and Years of Mem=Water- because 'this is where we die' is out the window. Mr Pendu gets Water now? How about 23 Majors or 24 then I could get The Sun as Fire I guess. This is a pain. No wonder Waite changed it, I have a little sympathy now. ~Rosanne

venicebard

Rosanne said:
Here is my Alpha-Tau list I am not going to try to put this on 22 paths, my little brain could not stand it.

So you have discarded the SY division into simples, doubles, and mothers. Since this is the part of it (along with chapter 1, on the Sefirot) I take to be the most fundamental, I cannot make heads nor tails of your list. Indeed the fact that alef-bet order runs (ostensibly) aries-virgo and then stops and presents us with the double letter that goes at virgo, then the simple for (ostensibly) libra followed by the mother letter at libra in the tree-calendar, then the simples for (ostensibly) the three signs of the self (scorpio through capricorn) followed by the double straight in from capricorn-of-the-Egg, and so on I find downright cheering next to your hodge-podge.

Still, thinking 'outside the box' is sometimes where profound ideas manage to surface, so do not take this as condemnation of your method. Indeed I tried to post additional comments on your path diagram yesterday, but the site crashed (did I have something to do with this?).

Years and Years of Mem=Water- because 'this is where we die' is out the window. Mr Pendu gets Water now? How about 23 Majors or 24 then I could get The Sun as Fire I guess. This is a pain. No wonder Waite changed it, I have a little sympathy now. ~Rosanne

Yes, things are so much more complicated in the absence of the bardic scheme, where there is unforced logic to explain every aspect of the symbolism of the Marseilles: I find myself at an obscene advantage in discussions of its symbolism because the bardic scheme is so obviously (to me) the scheme that spawned the Marseilles. In fact, the main reason I post on this site is out of compassion for the painful twists of logic undergone in a genuine attempt to understand both tarot and Kabbalah (that and so what I now know might survive the brief span of a single individual). So vastly outnumbered like the 300, I yet advance to the fray depending on good ol' Spartan metallurgy.

Interesting about the six thrones, considering 6th in the Bahir is the divine Throne. Does this mean that the Devil is just a mask God puts on, to scare us into behaving ourselves? (which does not of course make 'im any less real)

kwaw

Rosanne said:
Here is my Alpha-Tau list I am not going to try to put this on 22 paths, my little brain could not stand it.

Wow...now I am totally lost

I like to keep at least to the three, seven, twelve division, which still allows room to think 'outside of the box', for example:

A figure at the centre of directions most obviously is the world [Saturn]; that which is before and behind [east and west] is Sun and Moon; that which is above is the Star [Venus], and below the corpses being called from Sheol [Mercury as the messenger but also as psychopomp]; South [to the right] is the Tower [Jupiter] and North [to the left] is the Devil [Mars].

Thus we have:

World - Centre - Malkuth - Saturn?
Judgment - Below - Hod - Mercury?
Sun - Before - Tifareth - Sun?
Moon - Behind - Yesod - Moon?
Star - Above - Netzach - Venus?
Tower - Right - Chesed - Jupiter?
Devil - Left - Din - Mars ?

Thus the seven double letters in whatever order are allocated to the last seven cards [in whatever order] XV - XXI. (Or as I have done in a previous thread take fool as last, Tau and last seven cards XVI Beit House of God to Tau Fool).

Three mother letters most obviously matche the three virtues:

Mem - Water - Temperance
Shin - Fire - Fortitude
Alef - Air - Justice (the tongue of decree that decides between them, though there are arguments for shin -fire-justice and alef - fortitude too).

The remaining twelve [including fool] then go to the 12 remaining simple letters / signs.

Or using your throne model, or just cards 1-7 possibly:

Bateleur [mountebank] - centre
Popesse - Above
Empress - Below
Emperor - East
Pope - West
Justice or Lover - South
Devil or Chariot - North

Kwaw

Rosanne

If you Kwaw are confused then there is absolutely no hope for me!
I am like the oom-i'm-nackered bird. I fly in ever decreasing circles until I have my head up my end.
I think I agree with Mr Decker when he says the sacred signs might have been considered debased by merging them with cards. I think the Tree of Life is it's own Tree (a date Palm tree

), and Tarot has it's own tree too. ( a Monkey Puzzle Tree) I think this is cross pollination, that for me is never going to work, except as a intellectual exercise to consider correspondences (Which I enjoy by the way).
I like the signs as symbols in the alphabet. The most obvious to me is Tau the cross/mark. It is either Mr Mat or the place in the Universe where we are -The World. I like the 3/7/12 consideration astrologically- and as how things are- and numerically. But 22 cards in order on 22 letters and paths seems an artificial fit, no matter how I look at it- even with all the knowledgeable points made by you Kwaw and you VeniceBard.
So if I lay the 22 cards out
Le Mat- Le Bateleur-La Morte 3
la Papesse to La Giustizia (of course the Chariot is a throne duh!) 7
and the rest leaves 12 and they look like seasons especially if you take The Lover as the Sun and Le Diable as No Sun or too much Sun.The Fortuna as when the seasons change maybe.

So I can't work it out as a Kabalah Tree of Life.
Sorry to muddle you with my muddled thinking.I can't work out how my GGF thought about it either except the cube looks like the planets including Earth. ~Rosanne

kwaw

Tau - Moon/Saturn - World / Popesse - Zohar Quotes

Michael, Gabriel, Nuriel, and Raphael, which are water, fire, wind and earth, which are Right (South), Left (North), Front (East) and Behind (West), which are the secret of Chesed and Gevurah, Tiferet and Malchut, each one of them have four countenances: LION, OX, EAGLE, MAN (Male & Female); and these four countenances are the four letters of Yud Hei Vav Hei.

Michael is to the right. Gabriel is to the left. Uriel is to the front. Raphael is to the back. And the Shechinah is on top of them. Two are on this side, FROM SOUTH AND NORTH, and two are on that side, FROM EAST AND WEST, and she is in the center.

Wherefore all that? To bring her to join her husband ; and it is not meet that the Matron come to her husband unescorted by virgin maidens who come with her and conduct her to her husband.

Who is the bride? She is the King’s daughter, Queen Shabbat. And the dominion of both SATURN (HEB. SHABTAI) AND SHABBAT is on the seventh day, of which it says, "that your manservant and your maidservant may rest [MAKE SOULS]".

She is the Moon ... her handmaid is Saturn...(identified with Lilith).

Four countenances: LION, OX, EAGLE, MAN (Male & Female); and these four countenances are the four letters of Yud Hei Vav Hei:

----Y----
---H-Y---
- V-H-Y-
H-V-H-Y

Rosanne

Kwaw. Without blathering on about this Epihany (light bulb) you have just presented me with an understanding of John Chapter 1 if you replace 'word' with 'glory' or 'shekinah' and Kings1, Numbers and Exodus- This physical manifestation of God's nature, I am grateful.
I can see the tree.
I see my GGF somehow knew of the Zohar
Without being blasphemous- John of the Gospel would have made a great Tarotist.
Gosh you are really patient!
~Rosanne

venicebard

kwaw said:
Michael, Gabriel, Nuriel, and Raphael, which are water, fire, wind and earth, which are Right (South), Left (North), Front (East) and Behind (West), . . .

There is another place also in the Zohar that alots the elements thusly. It is the primordial arrangement and conforms that macrocosmic law of nature wherein flame rises (up being on average north of the equator) and water falls. But with earth and air there is a mystery: east being front means they knew earth rotated (methinks), yet when internalizing the symbol of the zodiac, it is the front that descends and the back that ascends (in the closed or circular one), reversing polarity symbolically and bringing conformance with the microcosmic law in nature wherein earth as the body points towards descent and air is the wind-in-one's-face when advancing in one's chariot points back towards (potential) ascent.

Michael is to the right. Gabriel is to the left. Uriel is to the front. Raphael is to the back.

Just as a side-light, I believe when I first dabbled in the Hermetic Cabala back in about '71 that they had both these polarities reversed: Michael as fire, Gabriel as water, Raphael as air, and Uriel as earth. Don't know enough about angels at present to comment, but I dare say if I keep studying Hebrew root-structure and looking up passages in the Bible that use this root and that, said situation might change.

kwaw

Much incorporates alphabetical allusion, for example, Michael to the right, Gabriel to the left, Nuriel to the front "are my shield"; an acrostic play on Michael. Gabriel, Nuriel = MaGeN = shield.

Kwaw

venicebard

kwaw said:
Much incorporates alphabetical allusion, for example, Michael to the right, Gabriel to the left, Nuriel to the front "are my shield"; an acrostic play on Michael. Gabriel, Nuriel = MaGeN = shield.

Interesting. You know, I just realized: if one were to interpret the reversal as a third genuine traditional element preserved in the Hermetic strand of the tradition (to add to the letter-paths and the correct assignment of planetary cycles to Sefirot in Asiyah), it may have to do with the mystery of facing west versus facing east, that is, of turning about and lining up the phases of the round symbolically. Since cancer, or straight ahead in the body, is where the round descends, it is west symbolically (as opposed to temperally, wherein it is summer's start, or 'kinetically', wherein east is the direction we travel through the signs in the heavens).

When one turns to face west, however, it is now the second half of the broken and extended zodiac that is properly aligned with that of the heavens, which happens to conform to the human form's having its more-or-less intact column behind and its broken one in front.

I happen to know the reason for this (it took about 3 decades for me to figure it out), but to articulate it will convince any that believe the modern theory of the interior of the earth it is I that am daft, not they. But I will say it anyway: up before the Fall was in the opposite direction. (I will say no more, but simply let this 'sink in' [lol].)