The Four Worlds/The Four Suits - the Order

Its not that others are wrong, i pour over GD material, its just that most of the TOL attributions are inaccurate. I don't want to keep fighting about that. Its because of the "other" work that our tradition does with the tree that the attributions have to be exacting. IE Working with internal forces and energies that the tarot allegorizes. Its nice to have a group of others to get a Antithesis to make a great Synthesis from . I would always like to say though for me all systems must align or none of them have the Kernel that im looking for.

Even Dion Fortune said to the effect that when multiple systems overlap in a meaningful way then there is something to be examined. For me GD attributions including BOTA do not allow the kind of "overlapping" that I would like in a system of Mystery School Attributions. For that is what we are discussing , not tarot from its point of view, but tarot in relation to other outside but extremely valuble systemized structures. I for one love Alchemy, but others feel more of a pull to Astrology. Its whatever gets results. For me the aim is kinda out there since I work with the Theosophic "7 Planes" model.

I like the differing views here. Very challenging indeed, my surrender to trying to gain adherents is much needed, however that system ( Continental - European / Martinist, Boehme, Etc) Is my particular choice, albiet one that has been made after lots, and lots of investigation, but still a CHOICE

Veni Vidi Vici certianly isn't my battle cry. but ...
quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus

GnosticTarotCards said:

This is not the kind of introduction I wanted to make to this group. Its somewhat sad and disconcerting that there is such rigidity in consideration of different views to Tarot / TOL Attributions.

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For some reason you seem to miss the fact that I was interested in your views, and I am interested in new ways of looking at things and do not hold 'tradition' as any justification in itself.

It was YOUR attritude GTC, you could have outlined your teaching without looking down your nose at anyone that didnt agree with what you were saying ... you were the one that started dissing other variations and virtually accusing them of being some dark evil conspiracy, you were the one who turned me off the teaching that you seem to think is so valid. I didnt have a problem with the system itself.

GnosticTarotCards said:

It does seem like the ol traditional view popularized wins. Congratultions! I think to keep persuing this sort of "ping pong" conversation is detrimental to any kind of spiritual foundation one would build, I humbly and gracefully bow out.

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No, its not the fact that a view is trad or pop, its what I said above. The ping pong converse is your concept, I asked questions and you didnt answer them ... I made vaild points against some claims you made and you didnt respond to that, you misinterpreted what I wrote when I was quoting you and then inferred I had a fascination with it. You used projective language and went from first person to second and it came out like you were telling me what I do or do not know or should or should not do.

... and now you are "gracefully" bowing out?

GnosticTarotCards said:

This conversation is too much for my little brain to handle. I need some more time and study to be able to know all that is being said,

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yes, take some time and study if you want to rise to a higher 'kabbalistic' plane, I hunbly and gracefully suggest you broaden your curriculum.

GnosticTarotCards said:

especially because I understand it one way and it is being highly scrutinized and taken out of context of the whole. That is something which is not pleasant , and i'd rather just spend my energies elsewhere, like my YouTube channel creating helpful videos for those interested in learning.

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So be it - but here you are getting feedback ... it might not be the feedback you want but it wont pull punches as we have nothing to loose, not interested in glamour, supporting an ego or belief system or a student paying fees.

GnosticTarotCards said:

It is a great thread though! Lots of differing viewpoints to follow when considering such things.
.

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Thats the spirit

The position of the Golden Dawn vs. European tarot is a sensitive one isn't it?? Im really not that upset that some feathers were ruffled, this is not some topic that is foreign to me, especially as a Continentalist.. what is upsetting is that the developments i've been able to make with kabbalah and tarot were not very well elucidated. Perhaps .. maybe .. I did make a wrong turn about my presupposition that those using different attributions of the GD -Esque groups were wrong, for that I apologize. Hopefully one day, this whole mess will be clarified and explained . Then again its highly doubtful.. but if the TOL is going to have any value we will have to see it converge with those other seemingly seperate albeit amazing systems of Alchemy, Astrology and Number Theory. Once that connection is made then the entire relevance is made clear. Its and/and not either / or , or , this/that.

Sorry for attacking the GD and others that find value in those attributions

Tim.

GnosticTarotCards said:

The position of the Golden Dawn vs. European tarot is a sensitive one isn't it?? Im really not that upset that some feathers were ruffled,.......

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Nobody cares whether anyone is for or against GD. Anti-esotericism is rampant in the main section of these forums, which deals mostly with divination. They don't want to be told what inspired the authors of esoteric decks and will fight tooth and nail for their cherished belief that Tarot has nothing whatsoever to do with anything esoteric.

The problem here is not with your position that the GD attributions are incorrect. The problem is the smugness with which your position was presented, and if any of your ideas were challenged, you tended to counter with the accusation that the challenger was too closed-minded to be receptive to anything which differed from GD. There is no need to be so defensive that it becomes offensive. Many of the contributors to these forums are Thelemites, who interchange the SY's astrological attributions for Heh and Tzaddi, but few people, if any, get obnoxious about it, as far as I can tell.

I know that you are trying to lighten up, but you still don't quite get the root of the problem, which has to do with communication itself, not the subject matter which is being communicated.

ETA. No, I am not "sensitive" about the "Golden Dawn vs. European Tarot," by which I assume you are referring to the Hebrew letter attributions, and I believe this is true also of everyone who has responded in this thread. Therefore, your "sensitive" issue comment is not only irrelevant but patronizing by implication.

However, I understand, Tim. It is frustrating to encounter a group of people who do not automatically accept all of one's opinions without question, isn't it?

There is no need to be so defensive that it becomes offensive

Awesome! Thanks for putting up with me. Its because of the Confluence of Astrology, Alchemy and Number Theology that im so Zealous

Zealot - yep thats a good word for it.

If I might add ... your willingness to NOW tackle the substantive issues in the 'miscommunication' is a good point in your favour IMO and will help you to further communicate and learn in your own tradition.

Many of us take such a zealous position when we are 'young' (i.e. not in age but in stage - when we are 'enamoured' with what a tradition, or discovery has led us to).

As we mature through a system we start to see its benefiets AND short comings ... a bit like a relationship ... with a lover OR a teacher.

whoops, I made a comment on a thread from 2003, did not know enough to subscribe to the thread, and looks like something interesting happened.

I am trying to get back into the Kabalah part of tarot, which is where I think I am supposed to go, got back on this thread, learned a lot more.

Wanted to point out one interesting thing: Einsteins greatest contribution to physics was done because he accepted that light could be both a particle and a wave, and went on from there. He did not resolve the controversy, he went above it.

Like my favorite Card, ART.

I think one of the most profound discoveries I've made in twenty years of studying tarot, qabalah/kabbalah and Western occultism is that in the end? The attributions that are truly significant are the ones that work inside my head, heart and personal magic and meditation. Golden Dawn, Thelema, Sefer Yetzriah, BoTA, Wang, everyone presents interesting ways to look at it all and not one of them have been exactly right for me. It took creating my own own, using the Gra Tree instead of the more common glyphs before everything feel in place for -me- and I'm 99.99% sure that "my way" wouldn't be The Way for everyone either.

I think that's part of the power and mystery of Qabalah/Tarot. So much of it really is subjective, even on such a simple level as the four element/YHVH/Four Worlds. A lot of it has to do with our own elemental balance- some of us are more dynamic, others more formative. There's fiery personalities and solid earthy stubborness that come into play with the simple thing of expressing ideas.

And sometimes its good to just step back and smile.