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Ludy Lescot / Golden Dawn ?

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MaineGirl117  MaineGirl117 is offline
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Ludy Lescot / Golden Dawn ?


I would like to propose that the imagery within the Ludy Lescot deck is following the teachings of the Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn.

In her forward she referenced this deck, and her subsequent notations speak of principles taught within the G.D. Within their teachings of Mental Transmutation, they speak of alchemy, astrology, and psychology.

If you look at the Kings of the Minors you find the King of Pentacles (the astrologist), King of Cups (The alchemist), King of Swords (the psychologist).. But then, who is the King of Wands?

Again I come back to how plain their (King & Queen) appearances are. I think this is Man, or rather in general, humanity - the willing student ascending in the order and learning the craft of magic. The minors 1-10 would show the initial steps one would go through to 'awakening' the spirit within oneself. The 6/wands is certainly interesting in this concept as the pictures on the wall all show both male/female within the frames (even though they are in various life stages). This would run concurrent to the idea of both masculine and feminine attributes in every person, be you born male or female you have the reciprocal within yourself.

These ideas would also be extended into the Majors. You can see the same gender concept in the World card, which is 'traditionally' hermaphroditic, but in this deck they are two beings who are symbolically encapsulated as though they were ‘in utero’. Someone even mentioned how similar the Magician looked to the Thoth deck. The references to the Chakras, Kabbalistic concepts and the integration of animals and their symbolism would also support this theory.

The examples could just go on and on from here. Freemasonry, the roses, the black and white tiles are all mentioned within the Golden Dawn teachings.

I don’t have any decks or books which would tell me how, then, the interpretations would change.

Anybody have any thoughts about this???
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Hemera  Hemera is offline
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Very interesting ideas, thank you! Your post finally made me dig up some of my books on Jungian psychology. My main source here is "The Mysterium of Coniunctio-Alchemical Image of Individuation" by Edward Edinger (Inner City Books, 1994) which is an amazing book on Alchemy and its psychological meaning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
I would like to propose that the imagery within the Ludy Lescot deck is following the teachings of the Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn.
Yes, excellent! I would take this even further and suggest that this deck as well as the Hermetic Order of the GD are both following Alchemy, or more prcisely (as Jung puts it) "The Separation and Synthesis of Psychic opposites in Alchemy". I actually think that´s what Tarot is about in general and there probably lies a great deal of its fascination.

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Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
IIf you look at the Kings of the Minors you find the King of Pentacles (the astrologist), King of Cups (The alchemist), King of Swords (the psychologist).. But then, who is the King of Wands?
I think he is the Intuitive and the Warrior. Or the Intuitive Warrior. If you think about the four functions of the Psyche (by Jung) you have: Feeling (Cups), Thinking (Swords), Sensate (Pentacles) and Intuition (Wands). So that would make them: The Intuitive Warrior (wands), The Sensate Astrologer (pentacles), The Feeling Alchemist (cups) and the Thinking Psychologist (swords). That would make sense, wouldn´t it?
I prefer to see the Kings and Queens together in this, though. I actually usually put the Queens above the Kings in my notebooks and in my Tarot practise. They are equal but I like to see the Queens first simply because I´m a woman/Queen myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
Again I come back to how plain their (King & Queen) appearances are. I think this is Man, or rather in general, humanity - the willing student ascending in the order and learning the craft of magic.
Yes. I agree. And these royal humans have not forgotten that they are also animals and as much depending on Nature as always.There are lots of animals and plants in this deck and in these Courts as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
The minors 1-10 would show the initial steps one would go through to 'awakening' the spirit within oneself.
This makes sense. I have to take a closer look but yes, I think you are on to something here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
The 6/wands is certainly interesting in this concept as the pictures on the wall all show both male/female within the frames (even though they are in various life stages). This would run concurrent to the idea of both masculine and feminine attributes in every person, be you born male or female you have the reciprocal within yourself.

These ideas would also be extended into the Majors. You can see the same gender concept in the World card, which is 'traditionally' hermaphroditic, but in this deck they are two beings who are symbolically encapsulated as though they were ‘in utero’.
?
Yes, interesting. I see this is as the Alchemy of the Psyche, the different stages of psychic growth and maturation. The stages are listed in many sources but the one I have here (by Edinger, mentioned above) lists the stages like this (and I´ve added the Majors to the list):

1) The Unity, prima materia, Mandala Fountain, the Protagonist: this would include The Fool and the High Priestess in her "fountain"?
2 )Emergence of the opposites: This could be the Majors from the High Priestess to the Strenght.
3) Stripped for Action: from the Hermit to the Hanged Man perhaps?
4) Descent & In the Tomb: Death, Tower, Devil
5) Separation of Soul and Body: Devil, Temperance
6) Dew from above: Star, Moon, Sun
7) Reunion of Soul and Body: Judgement and the World

I think the reason why in the World the man and woman are separate (instead of a hermaphrodite) is that we are now in a higher levels of consciousness. They are King and Queen and in old Alchemical pictures and texts the final stage is often a two headed person with the heads of the King and the Queen. So it is One but is is also two separate beings (unlike the childish Fool who is just One and actually rather hermaphroditic as well) In the old pictures the finally re-united King & Queen is often pictured standing on the Moon and the Sun and I find it interesting that we actually have the Sun and the Moon below the couple in our World card.
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MaineGirl117  MaineGirl117 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemera View Post
Very interesting ideas, thank you! Your post finally made me dig up some of my books on Jungian psychology. My main source here is "The Mysterium of Coniunctio-Alchemical Image of Individuation" by Edward Edinger (Inner City Books, 1994) which is an amazing book on Alchemy and its psychological meaning.

Yes, excellent! I would take this even further and suggest that this deck as well as the Hermetic Order of the GD are both following Alchemy, or more prcisely (as Jung puts it) "The Separation and Synthesis of Psychic opposites in Alchemy". I actually think that´s what Tarot is about in general and there probably lies a great deal of its fascination.
Fantastic! I've been looking for a good Jungian psychology book for my reference library, and I think you've just introduced me to my next Amazon purchase. Since you've introduced Jung in this topic, I'm also going to point out that two of our Page cards have a 'Red Book' within the pictures. Jung wrote his 'Red Book' or Liber Novus as a recounting of his own process of Individuation and exploration of 'Self'.

Quote:
I think he is the Intuitive and the Warrior. Or the Intuitive Warrior. If you think about the four functions of the Psyche (by Jung) you have: Feeling (Cups), Thinking (Swords), Sensate (Pentacles) and Intuition (Wands). So that would make them: The Intuitive Warrior (wands), The Sensate Astrologer (pentacles), The Feeling Alchemist (cups) and the Thinking Psychologist (swords). That would make sense, wouldn´t it?
This would make perfect sense.


Quote:
I prefer to see the Kings and Queens together in this, though. I actually usually put the Queens above the Kings in my notebooks and in my Tarot practise. They are equal but I like to see the Queens first simply because I´m a woman/Queen myself.
I had actually entertained the idea that this deck might have switched the hierarchies of the Court cards because of how the Empress/Emperor depicted a lot of role reversals. I would actually agree with how you notate your cards. The King of Wands has his hand upon the head of the lion. I've wondered if he was petting the head, or trying to hold it down/subjugate/tame the lion. The LWB says "The most powerful one may lie at your feet" and symbollically though the lion is male, lions in general are about the "Assertion of the Feminine and the Power of the Female Sun". This should probably be notated elsewhere, but for matters of discussion here it seems relevant. The lion pack is really ruled by the female lion

Quote:
Yes. I agree. And these royal humans have not forgotten that they are also animals and as much depending on Nature as always.There are lots of animals and plants in this deck and in these Courts as well.
I'm wondering if it's implied that they have forgotten their baser nature/instincts, which is why the Strength card and 5/wands are so ferocious. She had to awaken to the reality of that other 'self' that has been repressed by years of religious doctorines and society.


Quote:
Yes, interesting. I see this is as the Alchemy of the Psyche, the different stages of psychic growth and maturation. The stages are listed in many sources but the one I have here (by Edinger, mentioned above) lists the stages like this (and I´ve added the Majors to the list):
There may be some overlaps or *transition points*

1) The Unity, prima materia, Mandala Fountain, the Protagonist: this would include The Fool and the High Priestess in her "fountain"?

Wouldn't this be the division of Spirit into Body & Soul in this deck? Fool, Magician (body) & High Priestess (Soul).. but I'm wondering if this would also include the Empress/Emperor - our Protagonists *made human* or in the real world. It's also possible that only the Empress would belong here as 'Mother Nature' who would birth the opposite Emperor in the next category.

2 )Emergence of the opposites: This could be the Majors from the High Priestess to the Strenght.

Hierophant to Chariot? Would we include the Emperor here and move the Chariot to the next line?

3) Stripped for Action: from the Hermit to the Hanged Man perhaps?

I would probably say Strength, Hermit, Wheel (the chariot would fit here too - she's being carted away..?)

4) Descent & In the Tomb: Death, Tower, Devil

Justice, Hanged Man, Death

*Justice* as our mid-point, also seen by the serpeant who is the middle stage of the scorpion to the eagle. Don't know if this card would stand all on it's own, though her scales are tilting - she's leaning towards the Descent?

5) Separation of Soul and Body: Devil, Temperance

Temperance, Devil, Tower

(this might be why our Temperance card is so dark and the angel is made of stone like you would find in a cemetary if we are proceeding from the previous step)

6) Dew from above: Star, Moon, Sun

Yep!

7) Reunion of Soul and Body: Judgement and the World

Makes sense here too!

Lots of information here to start building on. I see a whole afternoon digging around on the internet in my near future.


Quote:
I think the reason why in the World the man and woman are separate (instead of a hermaphrodite) is that we are now in a higher levels of consciousness. They are King and Queen and in old Alchemical pictures and texts the final stage is often a two headed person with the heads of the King and the Queen. So it is One but is is also two separate beings (unlike the childish Fool who is just One and actually rather hermaphroditic as well) In the old pictures the finally re-united King & Queen is often pictured standing on the Moon and the Sun and I find it interesting that we actually have the Sun and the Moon below the couple in our World card.
I have not come across this reference of the two-headed world card, or the unity of the two upon the sun/moon. This is very interesting!!

Thank you so much for hunting down this reference material. I think these are the keys to unlocking the Majors, and subsequently the minors too! I'm more hooked now than ever on this deck
Top   #3
Hemera  Hemera is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
Since you've introduced Jung in this topic, I'm also going to point out that two of our Page cards have a 'Red Book' within the pictures. Jung wrote his 'Red Book' or Liber Novus as a recounting of his own process of Individuation and exploration of 'Self'.
Yes, of course! [..slaps head..] Thank you for pointing this out!
And there´s the "Golden Flower" in many cards,too. You know, the five petaled one that Jung also wrote about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
The King of Wands has his hand upon the head of the lion. I've wondered if he was petting the head, or trying to hold it down/subjugate/tame the lion. The LWB says "The most powerful one may lie at your feet" and symbollically though the lion is male, lions in general are about the "Assertion of the Feminine and the Power of the Female Sun". This should probably be notated elsewhere, but for matters of discussion here it seems relevant. The lion pack is really ruled by the female lion
Oh yes. And there is of course Sekhmet, the poweful Lion Goddess who is very much female!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
I'm wondering if it's implied that they have forgotten their baser nature/instincts, which is why the Strength card and 5/wands are so ferocious. She had to awaken to the reality of that other 'self' that has been repressed by years of religious doctorines and society.
Very good point


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
There may be some overlaps or *transition points*
Yes, I also seee many of the Major Arcana overlapping. Many cards would fit to many places in out list..


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
Lots of information here to start building on. I see a whole afternoon digging around on the internet in my near future.
LOL Me too. But I must be off to work now. I´ll be back later..

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
I have not come across this reference of the two-headed world card, or the unity of the two upon the sun/moon. This is very interesting!!
You´ll find more pictures and text in that Edinger book...

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Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
! I'm more hooked now than ever on this deck
And me. The more I study it the more it seems to speak to me!
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MaineGirl117  MaineGirl117 is offline
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This provides so much information on this deck! It's pretty incredible, and I haven't digested it all - but thought to share it anyways. More thoughts later!
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Hemera  Hemera is offline
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Oh, you keep finding these amazing websites Very interesting material.
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La Force  La Force is offline
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Ludy Lescot Students


I am a confessing that I am in the beginning stages of learning this Deck, I am not sure how to say this, so I will but it this way, I am Ludy Lescot's Student, and you Ladies are tearchers of Ludy Lescot's teachings. Is there anyway way you two teachers can take what you have learned so far about these extra threads you have posted, on alchemy, chakras, etc. onto the individual card threads, to help the student understand each individual card and how it relates to these subjects. that would be such a bonus, for as a student trying to keep up with the teacher, it starts to get confusing and scattered for the student. I only have one book Called "Tarot and Individuation" A Jungian study of correspondences with Cabala, Alchemy, and the Chakras, This book only deals with the major arcana. I am sure that there are many other student, that know nothing of these subjects yet, so it would be nice to put in laminae terms in each individual cards, in of course to your best abilities. please don't take offense. These extra thread are great.

La Force
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MaineGirl117  MaineGirl117 is offline
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Hi La Force!

I know it seems confusing and scattered. In all honesty, it still is so with me too. What generally happens is I do a reading, and am not satisfied with basic interpretive meanings and I go hunting around for my own. Based largely on the symbolism/colors in the cards. This tends to pull in animal interpretations and religious texts - and almost always some kind of Goddess/God who is acting as 'Teacher' to me at the moment. Trust me, I've cycled through many in a short period of time because they've all got something to say. Isis, Hecate, Iris, Hera/Zeus, Apollo - ad infinitum.

My best suggestion to you is take it in small bites. When you get to a particular card, group of cards, or symbol (like the black/white tiling, the masonic imagery - whatever it is) focus on that thread. Feel free to ask questions through PM or in the thread. Hemera and I will do our best to explain, and I'm guessing it'll be easier to explain if we have an example from YOU - ie. a particular card that we can focus on to answer your question. We've both got different takes on each card and how it manifests in daily 'on earth' life or in a spiritual context - it's never the same and I'm sure you understand this. You've got a great start with this deck and relating it to your own personal life. The stories you attach to the cards or symbols will work with you. Like for me, one way to see the 5/cups (funny har har) is relating it to coffee.... totally random, but reading the LWB it struck me a dripping/brewing coffee, and how sleepy I am until I get my first cup in me. How random is that?

I'm still very much studying the laymans terms for each card too! Very much a student of Ludy Lescot, though I'm glad some of my postings have helped you along. Hemera and I had a flurry of research activity in the earlier part of this year, but with summer here I don't sit poking around on the internet nearly as much as I use to. I did just picked up a Tarot and the Green Witch book because of my experience with the Judgment card and the eclipse/solstice and also my "non-traditional" stance on the Devil card. I spent two weeks just working my way through possibilitites and following leads to get to some kind of better understanding of how it relates to me but I don't expect you or anybody else to so "Oh yeah, you're right... it's [the Devil] one of the greatest cards in the deck and I just *LOVE* when it shows up" like I do.. because I know Archangel Uriel has something up his sleeve and I'll probably laugh till I almost pee myself when it comes out. Not always.. but sometimes this is true.

Help us, help you - when you're reading in the threads, if something strikes you about a comment, card connection etc.. pull the comment or link the thread into the appropriate card series thread, and ask your question We both keep close tabs on this study group and will respond as we're able!

Does that sound like something that will help you??
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La Force  La Force is offline
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Thank you MaineGirl

yes this sounds good, and also I have to let you know I was actually brewing my coffee while reading your post. lol, that is too funny. 5 of cups, I am make note, in my journal seek help and you shall receive when brewing coffee.

This is also awesome, I have the book Tarot for the green witch. perfect. we can maybe work that into this too, I just got it a month ago. sweet

La Force
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Hemera  Hemera is offline
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(Sipping my coffee at the office here )
Oh yes, very much what MG117 just said. I´m also a student -very much so! But I really love to share thoughts and ideas about this deck with you guys. And a lot of what you both observe and write here goes straight to my LL-notebook.
I think the only way with LL is really to follow your own paths and make your own research. (And report back to us, of course, so we can learn as well ) Oh, and give yourself time. This is a lifelong study..

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
This tends to pull in animal interpretations and religious texts - and almost always some kind of Goddess/God who is acting as 'Teacher' to me at the moment. Trust me, I've cycled through many in a short period of time because they've all got something to say. Isis, Hecate, Iris, Hera/Zeus, Apollo - ad infinitum.
Yes, this is true for me,too. I find that many Goddesses speak to me through this amazing deck. And the most amazing thing is the way this deck seems to find a balance and a unique unity between so many kinds of dualities: good & evil, black & white, dark & light, high & low, Night & Day ( which are the Goddesses Nyx and Hemera respectively!), the Dark Goddesses and the Light Goddesses.

Another thing that really fascinates me atm is the way the traditionally earthy and material suit of the Pentacles gets a new spiritual quality in this deck. That is something I´m currently working on. It´s got something to do with that uniting of opposites and getting out a "Third" (-the one the Alchemists speak of) which is a union of the old and yet something totally new as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaineGirl117 View Post
We both keep close tabs on this study group and will respond as we're able!
Yes! But just as MG117 said, summer tends to take me outdoors and away from the keyboard,too.
Top   #10


 


 


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