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Thoth Meanings vs Traditional Meanings

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Strega di Luna  Strega di Luna is offline
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Thoth Meanings vs Traditional Meanings


I know this isn't a traditional meaning, but the way I learned to read the tarot, the meanings are sometimes complete opposite of the thoth meanings.

ie.

7 of Coins
My meaning: Abundance, Success.
Thoth: Failure

How do I go about interpreting this?! Can I just use my meaning, or do I have to use the thoth meaning?

Help!
Top   #1
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fyreflye  fyreflye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strega di Luna
I know this isn't a traditional meaning, but the way I learned to read the tarot, the meanings are sometimes complete opposite of the thoth meanings.

ie.

7 of Coins
My meaning: Abundance, Success.
Thoth: Failure

How do I go about interpreting this?! Can I just use my meaning, or do I have to use the thoth meaning?

Help!
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of The Law.
Top   #2
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Barleywine  Barleywine is offline
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I've always found this to be one of the more challenging (and interesting) conundrums of Crowley's system. My understanding is that the rather impure essence of some of the higher-numbered "small cards" derives from their low placement on the Tree of Life. The lower down the Tree the associated sephiroth is - and when it is off the Middle Pillar - the more increasingly "corrupt" it is (that is, transitioning from a more purely spiritual to a more grossly material - and unbalanced - state) and the more attenuated the emanation of the elemental energy is. Hence we get words like Debauch, Indolence, Futility, Interference, Failure in those suits that are more prone to corruption (Wands seem to be exempt, as Fire consumes all corruption). This is especially true in the 7 and 8 cards. Once the emanation returns to the Middle Pillar, the corruption has run its course and the element, although enervated, returns to balance and a relative state of composure or stasis (which is not in all cases a good thing either: see Oppression, Cruelty, Ruin). I last read the Book of Thoth many years ago, but that's my somewhat faded recollection.

I think you will need to toss out much of what you remember from the Rider-Waite or comparable keywords and attributions and go at Thoth with a fresh set of eyes, since Crowley seemed rather inexorably dedicated to "correcting" Waite's work and "restoring" the true meanings. But only if you want to fully surrender to his vision; otherwise ditto to the above post.
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I think it needs to be remembered that Crowley didn't publish the Thoth as a correction of the RWS as if the RWS was the basis that he "rectified", as that implies the RWS is a source for the Thoth, which it is not. Both the Thoth and the RWS are based on the Golden Dawn tarot, the Thoth is more true to the Golden Dawn roots, the RWS more varied away from the GD basis.

In the GD deck, the "traditional meaning" is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liber T
L. The Lord of Success Unfulfilled

Seven of Pentacles

A WHITE Radiating Angelic Hand issuing from a cloud, and holding a white rose branch. Seven Pentacles arranged like the geomantic figure Rubeus:
There are only five buds, which overhang, but do not touch the five uppermost Pentacles. Above and below are the Decan symbols, Saturn and Taurus respectively.

Promises of success unfulfilled. (Shewn, as it were, by the fact that the rosebuds do not come to anything.) Loss of apparently promising fortune. Hopes deceived and crushed. Disappointment, misery, slavery, necessity and baseness. A cultivator of land, and yet a loser thereby. Sometimes it denotes slight and isolated gains with no fruits resulting therefrom, and of no further account, though seeming to promise well.

Netzach of HB:H (Unprofitable speculations and employments; little gain for much labour).

Therein HB:HRChAL and HB:MTzRAL are ruling Angels.
So within the GD tradition the 7 of Coins is about success, but it is success that is unfulfilled. I think you can and should read the cards anyway that you want to, they are your cards afterall. Though can't see how you could look at the image on the Thoth 7 of Disks and think "Success" at the same time as the image is so expressive of failure.

Though it may be helpful to look at the RWS 7 of Coins and see where you can see the concept of failure. As it is there in the RWS also, though not s explicitly.
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Barleywine  Barleywine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grigori
I think it needs to be remembered that Crowley didn't publish the Thoth as a correction of the RWS as if the RWS was the basis that he "rectified", as that implies the RWS is a source for the Thoth, which it is not. Both the Thoth and the RWS are based on the Golden Dawn tarot, the Thoth is more true to the Golden Dawn roots, the RWS more varied away from the GD basis.
Yet the allusions to Waite's work (although as I recall they didn't name him directly) seemed unremittingly unflattering, to put it mildly. And Crowley ferociously skewered him as Edwin Arthwaite in one of his magickal novels (Moonchild?) I suspect you're right about the basis for the deviation between the two master-works (as both certainly are), but the outcome seems to favor the view that Crowley was trying to "put things right" with the tarot from his own unique perspective. I should probably go back and "bone up" on some of that history before I stick my oar in the water here. Far too much time has passed for me to be confident of it.

By the way, the traditional GD meanings for 7 of Pentacles seem to be almost purely astrological in nature; they've got Saturn in Taurus all over them.
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Laura Borealis  Laura Borealis is offline
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Just going by the imagery on the RWS 7 of Pentacles, the fruits are still on the vine, as it were. It's not Success yet. Harvests can be ruined... eggs that are all in one basket can be smashed.
Top   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strega di Luna
I know this isn't a traditional meaning, but the way I learned to read the tarot, the meanings are sometimes complete opposite of the thoth meanings.

ie.

7 of Coins
My meaning: Abundance, Success.
Thoth: Failure

How do I go about interpreting this?! Can I just use my meaning, or do I have to use the thoth meaning?

Help!

You can and should use your meaning - you are the reader after all.

I'm not sure you can even say what traditional is- I am sure Etteilla had other views than the GD for example..

If you are using the Thoth deck, it would behoove you to try and use or add Thoth meanings in my opinion, but hey whatever works
Top   #7
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Grigori  Grigori is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barleywine
Yet the allusions to Waite's work (although as I recall they didn't name him directly) seemed unremittingly unflattering, to put it mildly. And Crowley ferociously skewered him as Edwin Arthwaite in one of his magickal novels (Moochild?) I suspect you're right about the basis for the deviation between the two master-works (as both certainly are), but the outcome seems to favor the view that Crowley was trying to "put things right" with the tarot from his own unique perspective.
Indeed, I didn't think your comment was incorrect, just wanted to clarify that the Thoth is not derived from the RWS, or a correction of the RWS. It's a correction (from Crowley's perspective) of The Tarot (which the RWS was not).

I believe Crowley says in his autobiography that he considers the RWS as awful the rest of Waites work (which although Crowley is very critical of, it was Waite's work that lead Crowley into the GD so he owes a lot to it). I think its fair to say that Crowley saw the Thoth as the GD deck (which he considered the True Occult Tarot) corrected in light of the New Aeon, and that the RWS was an unappealing perversion of the GD deck.

Quote:
I should probably go back and "bone up" on some of that history before I stick my oar in the water here. Far too much time has passed for me to be confident of it.
Please don't. It's just a little pet peeve of mine that a lot of RWS users think the RWS is the true original deck and that the Thoth is based on it somehow. It's my obsession to make sure folks are aware they have a common ancestor, but not direct line of lineage between the two. One of my peccadilloes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grigori
It's just a little pet peeve of mine that a lot of RWS users think the RWS is the true original deck and that the Thoth is based on it somehow. It's my obsession to make sure folks are aware they have a common ancestor, but not direct line of lineage between the two. One of my peccadilloes
Understood. I knew that both men had access to the GD material but that Waite was reluctant to fully disclose it in his tarot (I imagine he had sworn vows of secrecy), whereas Crowley, having been run out of the GD, had no such compunction; that makes his deck the truer heir. Since Crowley considered all other attempts at an "authentic Text of the Tarot" following in the wake of Eliphas Levi to be "gross, senseless, pitifully grotesque," it would be unthinkable that he would build anything on a foundation provided by Waite.
Top   #9
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Aeon418  Aeon418 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strega di Luna
How do I go about interpreting this?! Can I just use my meaning, or do I have to use the thoth meaning?
Of course you can do whatever you want. But you might want to ask yourself if you think the dark image of the 7 of Disks even looks like abundance and success. It doesn't to me.

Here we have the crushing, heavy weight of Saturn in Taurus. Yet this card is a 7 (Netzach) which brings with it a certain amount of desire, fantasy, and even day dreaming. But none of that is going to help deal with the physical burden of Saturn in Taurus. Quite the opposite in fact. It's a classic case of wrong tool for the job. Physical effort and hard work is required here, not wishing and make believe. Roll your sleaves up and get on with it!

Looking at the RWS image we see a guy who looks like he's got plenty to be getting on with, and yet he is just standing there like a slacker. He has harvested one of the Coins, but another six remain on the bush. (Who says money doesn't grow on trees? ) The guy either can't be bothered to pick the rest, or he's day dreaming about the money before investing the required effort. This guy deserves a Failure tattoo on his forehead, and a good kick up the backside!
Top   #10




 


 


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