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I have a different question but did not want to open another thread. In fact, I have two questions.


In the second coil of the snake there are five gray rays on the patter of the snake. They never caught my attention before. What is this? Any ideas?


The second one concerns the kerubic beasts in the quarters. Compared to the RWS world card the eagle and the guy are exchanged. Was this a blend in the RWS or is it one of those weird crowley things. In the Thoth Hierophant the association of kerubic beasts to quarters is the same as in the universe.

As far as I understand because of astrology we have
lion = leo = fire
bull = taurus = earth
man = aquarius = air
eagle = scorpio = water

In the LBRP we have
air in front
water behind
fire on the right
earth on the left

,which makes things even more confusing. So we have three different ways of assigning elements/kerubic beasts to directions.
Top   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaut View Post
In the second coil of the snake there are five gray rays on the patter of the snake. They never caught my attention before. What is this? Any ideas?
The rays emanate from what I assume is the Akasha Egg of Spirit. That may provide a clue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaut View Post
Compared to the RWS world card the eagle and the guy are exchanged. Was this a blend in the RWS or is it one of those weird crowley things.
Without going into too many details, it's one of those weird Crowley things. The best explanation I have seen is that the old placement of the Kerubim, as found in decks such as the RWS, is representative of the L.V.X. formula and the attainment of the Qabalistic sephirah, Tiphareth.

The new arrangement presented in the Thoth Tarot is representative of a higher attainment (Binah) via the formula of N.O.X.
In this scheme the Eagle is attributed to Air - Aquarius. And the (Wo)Man is Scorpio - Water.
Top   #22
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I think 'we' have two ways, essentially But with all things magical, over time it gets distorted.

There is 'heaven and earth'.

In the heavens, directions come from the elements of astrological signs. Also , in the past, elements were assigned to the 'Four Royal Stars' that marked the seasons.

On earth it comes from local environment (and even so with the 4 Royal Stars, seasons vary along with the environment ... where I am, we get rain in summer / autumn, other places in winter. And that varies , eg. in the north hemisphere, fire, the path of the Sun is in the south, here, in the north. Some Pagans read Euro Wicca books and set up their circles down here according to the north hemisphere . )

In my environment , the biggest ocean, the Pacific, is to the east - water, the oldest land mass and biggest island in the world is to the west - earth, the Sun in the north for fire and southerly winds blow a lot so air there - simple ?

Nah .... people have argued about this for ages. One reason being, there is 'Kabbalistic direction'. As if you were 'standing' on a place on the Tree of Life and the sephiroth around you have elements assigned - usually in connection to the '4 winds' ( the LBRP directions) . But it can easily be shown this is a local arrangement as well - if you are on the east coast of the Mediterranean , the homeland of Kabbalah. *

In short IMO, it doesnt matter, with 'directions' unless you are working in a context of localised 'forces' .... otherwise, whatever.

I feel the 'order' is more important ; with the 4 elements and their correspondences

Fire first , then water, then air and lastly earth.

(Some have made it ridiculous .... Like DuQuette {again} ; in one of Crowley's rituals he gives another variant of 'directions' ( Liber Reguli if I remember rightly ? ) DuQuettes information on it is it is heliocentric .... and one is supposed to imagine oneself in the position of the Sun ....... upside down .

Upside down in the sun .... to make the directions 'fit' ..... whatever

[ Some people have challenged me on this; I asked them if they were doing a ritual on the beach and had a circle drawn and the east quarter (here) was a few steps away from the ocean, and they wanted some water for their ritual, would they really make water in the west, up the beach and call out to the inland to invoke water ?

It wasnt answered, of course ... just an attempt at a counter ; "Well, what about when you do a ritual at home by the river and at at your place, on the river beach the water is to the west, what do you do then ?"

"I make water in the west, of course ... because ... there it is ! "

'Thats crazy ! You cant move the elements around like that !'

"Oh ! Cant I ? "

* ETA (cross post with Aeon ) ... Aeon makes a point about position and changing elements as well, but this time in a sort of internal landscape. This can be helpful if you understand the map ( ToL) really well, then one can 'shift places' according to the 'scenery' ; if one can imagine Tiphareth 'below you and Geburah to your right, then one can 'be' in a position and orientation .... just as if one looks out the front and rear window of a car to familiar landscapes and identify position .... its a visualisation tool. And this is similar to the changing 'view' in the environment , depending on your hemisphere and location.

(If I close my eyes and imagine the sun setting over the sea - water in the west , I am transported back , in memory, to when I lived in Western Australia ,)

But I doubt such directional variations are useful unless you doing that type of work.)
Top   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
* ETA (cross post with Aeon ) ... Aeon makes a point about position and changing elements as well, but this time in a sort of internal landscape.
J. Daniel Gunther makes a very good case for the N.O.X. attribution in his book, The Angel and the Abyss.

Essentially the new attribution forms a different Pentagrammaton that represents the Woman Satisfied. (IHVH + L = 56, NV. ) This arrangement is mapped in Liber V vel Reguli, and the functional opposition of the signs of N.O.X.

The old placement of the Kerubim, when mapped onto a pentagram with the addition of the 'crowning' letter Shin, indicates the Old Aeon pinnacle of attainment in Tiphareth and the name, IHShVH. The new placement supersedes (not abrogates) the old scheme and shows that the 'goal posts of initiation' have got a little wider than before. To me this is one of those subtle little changes that marks the Thoth deck as New Aeonic. Hence the traditional symbolism is adjusted to accommodate the new and expanded point of view.
Top   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaut View Post
I have a different question but did not want to open another thread. In fact, I have two questions.


In the second coil of the snake there are five gray rays on the patter of the snake. They never caught my attention before. What is this? Any ideas?


The second one concerns the kerubic beasts in the quarters. Compared to the RWS world card the eagle and the guy are exchanged. Was this a blend in the RWS or is it one of those weird crowley things. In the Thoth Hierophant the association of kerubic beasts to quarters is the same as in the universe.

As far as I understand because of astrology we have
lion = leo = fire
bull = taurus = earth
man = aquarius = air
eagle = scorpio = water

In the LBRP we have
air in front
water behind
fire on the right
earth on the left

,which makes things even more confusing. So we have three different ways of assigning elements/kerubic beasts to directions.
Although what we see here are representations of the four fixed signs of the zodiac, they are obviously not shown in their astrological order which has Leo (fire) opposite Aquarius (air), and Taurus (earth) opposite Scorpio (water).

Rather, the way the kerubim are arranged on those two Majors, they represent the Aristotelian cross of the elements which is central to alchemy. On it, fire (hot and dry) is opposite to water (cold and wet), air (hot and wet) opposite to earth (cold and dry).

The third way to pair the elements (fire/earth and water/air respectively), as suggested by the LBRP, would seem to be based on Plato's Timaios and can also be seen in Julius Evola's The Hermetic Tradition. Evola found this scheme in the unpublished documents of UR, an Italian Hermetic-Pythagorean group that he was a member of, comparable to the Golden Dawn.

None of these arrangements is "wrong", each is just highlighting a particular way the four elements relate to one another. But yes, when making further attributions (such as to the four cardinal directions), this gets very confusing. As every so often in the esoteric sciences, there is no consensus there, what is "right" depends on context or personal preference.
Top   #25
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Thank you all for your answers.

@ravenest. Do I understand it correctly, that you argue to assign the elements to the directions so that it makes sense according where I stand?

Even with the original (RWS) placement of Eagle and Man it does not fit into the elements how they are invoked in the LBRP. That is truely mind-boggling to me. Any explanations?
Top   #26
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Al quote about the associations of the kerubs


'The beast and the scarlet woman are attributed to Leo and Scorpio. they are two-in-one Chief officers of the temple of the new aeon of Heru-Ra-Ha. (note the eagle kerub in the 23 Aire is Aquarius. Scorpio is the woman-serpent. this is important, for the old attribution is of the eagle to Scorpio')
Top   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaut View Post
Thank you all for your answers.

@ravenest. Do I understand it correctly, that you argue to assign the elements to the directions so that it makes sense according where I stand?
Errmmm ... I will argue that is how 'elemental directions' came about in the first place.

Even astrological elements. How else did they get that flavour ( well, some fiddling to get them to make a cyclic regular pattern. If a star or asterism marked the beginning of the summer or a wet season ....

What sense can one make of putting water in the west ? I'd like to hear your reason for it. Unless it is some highly complex internal mapping reason, like Aeon suggests, but unless you are working that way and in that system, I feel it is a very unnecessary over complication.

Most people just agree water is in the west, because that was what they were told. get further into it, Kabbalistically, it comes from the four winds, why? Because, in Israel the west wind blows in from the sea and is 'wet'.

I would not argue that for you though, as any system you adopt depends on what your aim is. If you want to learn a standard LBRP for 'Kabbalistic reasons' , or as a preliminary to similar work I would suggest following the script.

If you want to use it in some other way, varied arrangements may suit.

If you want to work 'in nature' and use the forces of the environment around you, like making a circle with 4 elemental quarters, then I would suggest using them how you see them manifested.

Of course, any local environment may mix thing up, as Michael pointed out with the arrangements he detailed in the elements (not the 'directions' as such ) .

One, is to have the opposites ( active opposes passive - fire and water ; air and earth ) at opposite quarters and line from one to the other has a + or - terminal.

.. F

E + A

.. W

Another is to have one line with + terminals and the other line with - terminals crossing to make the polarity.


... F

W + E

... A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaut View Post
Even with the original (RWS) placement of Eagle and Man it does not fit into the elements how they are invoked in the LBRP. That is truly mind-boggling to me. Any explanations?
I would have to find out the reason why it boggles your mind before I could offer an explanation.

LBRP directions are to do with the Sephiroth on the Tree of Life, and a specific imagined position within it. Kerubs on the World card are to do with the zodiac, and a central position in it .
Top   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La'al quiet fella View Post
'The beast and the scarlet woman are attributed to Leo and Scorpio. they are two-in-one Chief officers of the temple of the new aeon of Heru-Ra-Ha. (note the eagle kerub in the 23 Aire is Aquarius. Scorpio is the woman-serpent. this is important, for the old attribution is of the eagle to Scorpio')
Yes.

There's a further twist though. The traditional attributions of the Tetragrammaton, IHVH, do not determine the placement of the Kerubim. Instead they are determined by the functional opposition of the Signs of N.O.X. as given in Liber V vel Reguli, where Vir opposes Mullier and Puer opposes Puella. This is exactly what we see on Atu's V and XXI with the Bull opposing the Woman, and the Lion opposing the Eagle.

Bull(Taurus) - Vir(Man) - Yod - Earth.

Woman(Scorpio) - Mullier(Mother) - Heh-prima - Water.

Lion(Leo) - Puer(Son) - Vau - Fire.

Eagle(Aquarius) - Puella(Daughter) - Heh-final - Air.

One important result of these new attributions is that the Mother and the Daughter, Heh-Prima and Heh-final, occupy the top half of the card. The Daughter has been raised to the Throne of the Mother.

When projected onto a pentagram the two letter Heh's sit at either end of the horizontal bar. This is significant when the letter Lamed is attributed to the topmost point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Daniel Gunther
This is the work which balances the Daughter Heh-final with Heh-prima the Mother; the union of the cherub of Air and Water in the pans of the balance. This is the satisfaction of the Woman, the formula of 5 + 5 + 30 = 40, the Hanged Man, the Master of the Temple who hangs suspended on the gallows of heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liber LXV, III:59
Therefore is the Eagle made one with the Man, and the gallows of infamy dance with the fruit of the just.
Top   #29

 





 


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