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...and Crowley be thy Name

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Why beat around the bush?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abrac
Personally, I do see Crowley as Satanic...
This is what I admire... just come right out and say it.
Mr Crowley was as Satanic as he could manage to be.
If it had been in vogue, he would've copyrighted it.
Top   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abrac
The purpose for the working when it was originally written would have been to conjure the evil beings for the purpose of subjugating them for some higher purpose, though the logic behind conjuring an evil being for the purpose of doing good escapes me.
The four evil princes are symbolic of the lower self of mankind. They aren't literal beings per se. The purpose of subjugating them after making contact with the higher self is to keep them under control after the influx of power from the higher self. But I repeat, this is all symbolic. It is not meant to be interpreted literally, just like Tarot.

To put it in another symbolic way. Say that the Boss of a company handed down a big bonus to all of his/her employees, but Middle Management kept it all for themselves. Before you know it the grunts on the shop floor call for a strike.
Top   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
The purpose of subjugating them after making contact with the higher self is to keep them under control after the influx of power from the higher self.
Thank you for that explanation Aeon418. Now it makes more sense.
Top   #43
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I doubt that many modern day magicians would veiw the process as subjugation though. Integration of the higher and lower self would be a more modern understanding, that is more in line with the current of spiritual relativism of Crowley.

The old magical texts are coloured by a dualistic, religious, and moral bias that is very simplistic by todays standards. The modern magus does not see the lower self as evil, but rather part of a whole self.

But some people still respond to superstitions and fears of a bogey man Satan and believe that their animal desires are evil.
Top   #44
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I read through the thread last night, and thought I'd wait until today to find a quote I thought I remembered from Crowley's Magick in theory and practice... took me a little while, but it's on p193 (1929 edition).

Before doing so, however, let me add that in my view LaVey's works are, as mentioned by others, irrelevant to this discussion. Whetever he has decided to adopt from Crowley or others is for a very specific form of 'satanism' that he has appropriated in his own peculiar fashion, and it would be a pity to consider his version as representative of the various nuances the term has in various contexts.

Also, I am in disagreement with ravenest's statement regarding Steiner ("[...] Rudolf Stiener wrote some very interesting stuff about Lucifer [...] but later runs of their books and their own organisations have censored them [...]" see post 38 above for the full quote). I'm not sure which of the many lecture series by Steiner, or which books and papers, are being referred to, but his usage of the name 'Lucifer', and, for that matter, 'Ahriman', and 'Christ' have been retained and, importantly, republished. The terms are too clear to be altered, and need not be (on the contrary!).

Since this has been mentioned, it may also be worth mentioning that the luciferic and the satanic are viewed as distinct and different forces by not only Steiner, but by those that Crowley would have been in contact with at the time. That they can each be viewed as a different impulse for evil can also be seen in, for example, one form of viewing XV the Devil: in some decks he has two faces, one upon his head (an ahrimanic impulse), the other on his belly (a luciferic one). Each of the 'imps' can also be viewed as having predominant leanings towards one or the other of these two extremes.

But let's return to Crowley's works for a while.

There is (or at least, it called to my mind) something of Goethe's Faust in Crowley's statement that "With regards to Pacts, they are rarely lawful. There should be no bargain struck. Magick is not a trade, and no hucksters need apply. Master everything, [...]" (ibid. p. 194).

But let us turn to the page prior (193), and its important footnote:
"The Devil does not exist. It is a false name invented by the Black Brothers to imply a Unity in their ignorant muddle of dispersions. A devil who had unity would be a God [fn 1]
Here Crowley is certainly conjuring the familiar line at the time that a variety of beings are incorrectly applied the singular title of 'devil'.

But let's go straight to part of the footnote [fn 1] (the whole foonote is half a page long):
""The Devil" is, historically, the God of any people that one personally dislikes. This has lead to so much confusion of thought that THE BEAST 666 [ie, Crowley himself] has preferred to let names stand as they are, and to proclaim simply that AIWAZ - the solar-phallic-hermetic "Lucifer" is His own Holy Guardian Angel, and "The Devil" SATAN or HADIT of our particular unit of the Starry Universe. [...]"
Now, I'm not sure about others, but it seems to me that here Crowley is, contra many of his time that wrote on the subject, presenting an identification between Lucifer and Satan, and that, further, he considers the same as his own 'Holy Guardian Angel' - and that further, such is to be invoked with one's whole being.

On that reading, Crowley is very much a satanist, who sees in the Satan a being who delivers humanity from the shackles of ignorance and makes of Man a God.

This can be further evidenced by pointing to his bolded section on the next page, whereby he writes (p 194) that ""Obedience and faith to Him that liveth and triumpheth [...]" is your duty to your Holy Guardian Angel [...]" - in this case, given who he claims as his own HGA, his duty is obedience and faith in satan.

(In that same footnore, by the way, Crowley also notes that satan's emblem is the E. Levi androgenous Baphomet, and that the 'number of His ATU is XV' - clearly referencing, in this instance, Tarot.)

I fail to see why, if one is very much into Crowley, this would not be taken on board as part of this man's chosen path. Of course, his concept of satan has undoubted distinctions to the same by those who take LaVey's works as important, or those who see in Christ a liberating luminosity that is only obscured by the driving challenges presented by satanism - whether of the crowleyan or other variety.

...one needs to of course choose one's own path, but also would suggest that for some, an insight into Crowley's inclinations is sufficient to ward off further study into his views and system - without needing to read his whole corpus, nor take on board his suggested lines of study.
Top   #45
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Context is very important.
Quote:
His allusions in his writings to Satan, Lucifer, the devil, and so forth are pertinent only within the self-referential documents of Thelema. They can only be understood and evaluated within those contexts and should only be disturbing or offensive to those individuals who for whatever reason are unwilling or unable to do a little honest homework.

LMD
Trace the links between the Holy Guardian Angel, Satan, Hadit and the concept of OTHER. Something that is the real you, but appears to be entirely OTHER than you.
Top   #46
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Hence his appropriation of 'The BEAST 666'.
Top   #47
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Firstly- Thank you jmd, for giving a more appropriate argument for why I believe Crowley a Satanist. This thread came about because I could not, in truth discuss the differences between Thoth Tarot and RWS, because of the philosophical differences of the men who claim they have influenced each deck. I can discuss the physical differences between the two. Several years ago I made up my mind to investigate what Crowley was trying to say. I did not like what that was, finally. So I packed away all the paperwork of his and others on the subject. The shame of it is- that I cannot use the Thoth because of my investigations, even though I find it a visually beautiful deck. I have been trying to re- align my thoughts through Mary Greer's 21 steps, using the Thoth. I am not suceeding very well. I made the comment about Crowley in the other thread and was off topic- but was jumped on very thoroughly for holding the view that Crowley was a Satanist. So as I said at the opening post I was explaining my views on the man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmd
I fail to see why, if one is very much into Crowley, this would not be taken on board as part of this man's chosen path. Of course, his concept of satan has undoubted distinctions to the same by those who take LaVey's works as important, or those who see in Christ a liberating luminosity that is only obscured by the driving challenges presented by satanism - whether of the crowleyan or other variety.

...one needs to of course choose one's own path, but also would suggest that for some, an insight into Crowley's inclinations is sufficient to ward off further study into his views and system - without needing to read his whole corpus, nor take on board his suggested lines of study.
You have said what I was trying to say in a calmer, more lucid and erudite way. I have no desire to change anyone else's view- I was just trying to explain mine, as it was challenged in relationship to my knowing anything at all about the subject/ or allowed to have credible views of my own. Hence my sarcastic thread title. I am one of the "for some" whom you spoke of. ~Rosanne
Top   #48
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If you find the deck a beautifully illustrated deck, Rosanne, then why not focus on it as an artistic expression of Lady Freida Harris in her endeavour to apply Projective Geometry as the underlying artistic impulse for the deck - taking Crowley's influence as simply that: an influence that for some will be deemed of primary importance, and for others, an acknowledged but unfortunate intrusion.
Top   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmd
The Devil" is, historically, the God of any people that one personally dislikes. This has lead to so much confusion of thought that THE BEAST 666 [ie, Crowley himself] has preferred to let names stand as they are, and to proclaim simply that AIWAZ - the solar-phallic-hermetic "Lucifer" is His own Holy Guardian Angel, and "The Devil" SATAN or HADIT of our particular unit of the Starry Universe.
You do realise that this quote is not only aimed at Crowley himself?
It's also aimed at you, me, and even Rosanne. If this quote is proof of Crowley's Satanism it is also proof of your own Satanism.
Top   #50




 


 


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