More on Pamela Colman Smith

Yeah that is not gonna make a lot of friends. I would imagine he was a jerk... but his contribution to tarot need not be linked to his personality. I might not invite him to any get togethers but it doens't make me want to downlay his contribution to the cards.

Still on the fence about whether Crowley would get an invite.

Shade,I am one of those posters who disparage Waite, although I read his writings. You have just pricked my conscience, and I will be more circumspect now. Like you I would not be sure about him as a dinner guest, but on the other hand he sure might be able to clear up some questions I have about RWS ... as to Crowley thats a whole other basket of worms!! ~Rosanne

Oh Rosanne I didn't want to make anyone feel guilty... I was just offering my observation. You are allowed to hate him! I just thought it would be interesting to look at why certain personalities are hated and others are lauded.

So for example lot of people here are Smith fans - and that makes sense, I thikn her artwork is beautiful and she is to my mind one of the founding mothers of the Anglo Tarot world. It makes sense that we wouldn't want to think of her as depressed or unhappy (as she seems to have been later in life) but if she was depressed and unhappy... does that diminish her work in tarot? Maybe for some people it would.

There is a similar thread going on right now about the Thoth where a lot of peopel said they shy away from the cards because Crowley was such a wacky guy what with the drugs and demon summoning and I noticed in that thread there was also a trend to downplay Crowley's involvement and give more credit to Harris.

So what is at work here?

Is it just that because Waite and Crowley were jerks that more credit is given to Smith and Harris because they are the next likely person, being the decks' artists?

Is it slightly sexist, where the man is the stodgy, tyrannical brute and the woman is the divine creatrix (interpretations of the Emperor and Empress give clues to why this issue runs pretty deep)? That sounds accusatory doesn't it? Even if it were a bit sexist that's not necessarily a bad thing. A reaction to past infractions, a bit of over-correction to make for a more balanced future, I'm not opposed to these things.

Is it because it frees us from having to adhere to Waite and Crowley's interpretations of teh cards and get to explore more intuitively, hunting for the secrets Smith and Harris encoded into the decks under the menfolk's noses?

Maybe it's all true... the bulk of what we love in the cards comes from Smith and Harris and Waite and Crowley can be nearly ignored when making use of the decks. Hey, why not?

Other thoughts?

Again I wasn't trying to make everyone say nice things about Waite I just want to explore the trend a bit.

I've dealt with many strong personalities in my theatrical days - Waite and Crowley would fit right in - up there with the 'divas,' But the funny thing about being a true Diva - or a 'star' like Lauren Bacall - they have the talent to have gotten them up to 'diva status.' Just being a cranky old bitch won't get you to the center of stage or on the silver screen - for very long. It takes talent to get there and even more talent to stay there.

Let me tell you an old but real theatrical story - if it happens to sound like 'The Rise and Fall of the Golden Dawn' - well...

Four or five talented musican friends get together and find they have a certain talent for chamber music and form a group. They are very good and increase their repetoire and their stature grows. They become a name that gets recognised. One day someone gets sick, and a search goes out for a quick replacement and one gets found. The replacement (he) runs in at the last second and the concert is saved. Do they add him to the group, or keep him in the wings for next time? He is forceful and says he didn't mind helping out but he has better things to do than sit in the wings. He is made a member of the group and soon wants to have a say in what types of music get chosen. To be democratic, the group chooses pieces of 'his' liking although there is dissention. Soon he is conducting his favorite composer and soon the feeling is that he is 'trying to take over.' Mass confusion reigns as meetings of the group dissolve into anarchy. Three of the group depart, and are soon replaced by 'his' friends ... and to top it off, he keeps the group's original name since the group has not officially dissolved. Soon, ego ablase, he changes the group to be the way he likes it. No one remembers what the orignal group was like, no one remembers their performances ... all the audiences know or remember is what they see before them at a concert.

Waite was probably a really arrogant bastard; Crowley had his own agenda.

So, other than Dion Fortune ... who were the other members of the Golden Dawn? How many members were there? Does anyone remember who they were ... off the top of their heads? What did they do in real life, and what happened to them after the Golden Dawn broke up?

There's your answer - no one remembers the people who didn't make a name for themselves. There is a fine line between famous and infamous.

Could be just a tendency to try to look for the road less travelled...

Hello Shade,

I think there's so much more out in the world by Waite and Crowley--very well published, lots of their own words...lots of other people's words about them. Just my perspective.

Less is out in the world for people to read from the artists themselves in the case of Harris and Colman-Smith. I'm not actually seeing a hard and fast aspect of any prevailing 'forum' attitude--more of a forum tendency for people to discuss from their certain perspectives. That I seem to recognize some names with specific concrete opinions is interesting to me, but for me, I seem to see more individualistic attitudes.

I was thinking there is one of these contemporary American trends to show photographs or film clips and having actors narrate from letters of the time and show writings, etc...but not many biographers have gathered much factual texts about Pamela Colman Smith or Frieda Harris in biography...some of what I seem to gather is these two artists didn't tend to be as known as outspoken, colorful personalities in their own right. I seem to see a period tendency not to really laud the artists overmuch at the time period they painted their collaborations--which is a bias of the time, I think.

From what I gather from historical studies, the writers or patrons were traditionally more lauded than artists themselves, if the artist isn't a recognized visionary. Perhaps as the turn of the last century grabs at us more aging (over 30), the idea of nostalgia circa 1900s is more prominent. I think it was a twentieth century trend to elevate the artist and individual as visionary, especially if their personalities were notable. But many of the visionairies such as Dali, who did a tarot, have been 'done to death' by researchers...so people here are curious about the lesser known. Also, people love to delve into the less-known artists as personalities, hoping to find treasures.

Sometimes you'll see my name rooting around various subjects because I'm a curious, seeking individual and art history is a fascination...especially with tarot-related topics. PCS' art style came up more to my mind, as I was rooting up stones around art influenced by Asian cross-currents. I also was curious of the Frieda Harris art influences as I saw more related to yoga, art deco and other things in her designs.

That's my general take in participating in lots of related discussions. You may notice that I don't come up with real answers, just take a step at a time in absorbing what I can. That I link and share a lot in these discussions is me trying to go with the flow...maybe be helpful to fellow students, maybe me just being the evil link-monger as I share my cerebral excitement--historical bits and pieces are sometimes the funnest sparkly toys for this funny brain of mine.

Best regards.

Cerulean

divergent threads forming ....

Hi-

Over in 'Talking Tarot' I started three new threads and am delivering your invitations to dinner with Waite, Crowley, and Miss Smith. Mr. Waite and Miss Smith moved their receptions by 24 hours in either direction for those who may have tried to plan on going to all three in one incredible evening and ask your indulgences for the social oversight.

What would you say to or ask of each of these personalities - if you could be given the chance? Be sure to go to the individual threads and post your questions!

U.k

I agree about what your saying with some views about Waite and Crowleys influences on the woman who had helped create these amazing Tarot decks. I think it was impossible for Smith and Harris to hide away their direct involvements with those men, and i have read that Smith had always wanted to become a well known figure with her Art shows around the world, but sadly she had became very disappointed and disillusionrd with not having enough recognishing with her work that lead her to die penniless, and obscure if not for the Rider waite Tarot. And as for Harris she once told Crowley that she wanted to remain Anonymous when her paintings were finished, and did not want any Notoriety when Crowleys cards were shown. If only they knew what was to happen many years later.

tarotbear said:

Hi-

Over in 'Talking Tarot' I started three threads and am delivering your invitation to dinner with Waite, Crowley, or Miss Smith.

What would you say to or ask of each of these personalities - if you could be given the chance?

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A.E. Waite - "What do you think of Mr. Crowley?"

E.A. Crowley - "I think you'd love to try some LSD."

Pixie - "Do you know that you're the most famous and loved tarot artist in history, and your work started a tarot revolution?"

Ross

Fulgour said:

February 16th ~ 1878

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I just wanted to say how much i have learned about her from this thread and the various resources listed. I happen to share a birthday with her.

U.k

How cool to share a Birthday with Pamela Colman i believe thats on the 16th February i might need to check on that, so that leaves a few more weeks till then but hey Happy Birthdays too you both in the mean time