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Lightbulb Hierophant/Chariot are "lesson learned" from 5's & 7's?


Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelie View Post
7 (Chariot/7 of Coins): crowning victory/ completion of work of creation, Sabbath rest
Except there is no rest in the 7's. There's the 7/Cups with the person trying to make up their mind...NO action taken yet. There's the 7/Swords with the person trying to sneak off with 5 out of 7 swords, they haven't succeeded yet either. They might be caught. There is the 7/Pents...fruit not harvested. No rest till it is. And there is the 7/Wands, the man defending his position, and he's not letting down his guard. The Chariot might show the victorious at rest, having reached the Sabbath...but the 7's are about the start of the week...what you have to do to get to Sabbath.

And maybe that's the way you can fit your Biblical definitions into both the 5's and the 7's. Look at the two majors, Hierophant and the Chariot, as what those minor numbered cards are trying to become. The "below" trying to be what is "above", if you like. If you're wiling to learn from the 5's "Thy will be done" you will become the Hierophant. If you're willing to figure out the right action and get through the week successfully in the 7's, you'll become the Chariot. Victorious and able to rest on the Sabbath.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
But that's the thing. The 5/Cups hints that there is hope...but the 5/Cups is the point at which hope is NOT accepted. What I'm saying is, you're missing the point if you see the 5/Cups as "hope." It's about dealing with loss. ALL the 5's are about dealing with loss. Or, rather, the right way to deal with loss. In the 5/Cups, the person would rather wallow in emotion, in the loss, than accept what still remains. The 5/Cups says: Don't do that!

The 5/Wands is where the star football player in high school goes to college and realizes he's one of many star quarterbacks and they're all equally good. All those 5 men in the 5/Wands have realize that they're no longer "Stars." But they can't give up on the idea of proving they're special. So they fight each other which is a waste of energy. 5/Wands says: "Don't do that! Accept that there are others as good as you." (Because if they all accepted that, they might work together as a team, and win that way, right?)

5/Swords card is called "Failure" and in the RWS image, the two who've lost the "argument" are grumbling and angry and upset. That's not the best way to deal with failure. And certainly, if we're talking about this in religious terms, handling loss and failure with grace is how you "win" in many a holy test. It's not about succeeding, it's about accepting. Look at Job.

The 5's aren't about "look on the bright side!" or even "look to god, and you will be saved"...they're about learning how to say: "thy will be done." Which the Hierophant certainly says daily...and advices others to do as well.
OK. I am with you on this, I think--just saying I can see my idea of the 5 reconciled with the tarot meaning you provide here. Your explanation goes along with some things I just read today on The Emperor and The Hierophant in Meditations on Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism

I'm not sure it speaks to the idea of the 5th Element and the Major Arcana being the 5th Suit...but the explanation does speak to losing the 4 to gain the 5.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
Except there is no rest in the 7's. There's the 7/Cups with the person trying to make up their mind...NO action taken yet. There's the 7/Swords with the person trying to sneak off with 5 out of 7 swords, they haven't succeeded yet either. They might be caught. There is the 7/Pents...fruit not harvested. No rest till it is. And there is the 7/Wands, the man defending his position, and he's not letting down his guard. The Chariot might show the victorious at rest, having reached the Sabbath...but the 7's are about the start of the week...what you have to do to get to Sabbath.

And maybe that's the way you can fit your Biblical definitions into both the 5's and the 7's. Look at the two majors, Hierophant and the Chariot, as what those minor numbered cards are trying to become. The "below" trying to be what is "above", if you like. If you're wiling to learn from the 5's "Thy will be done" you will become the Hierophant. If you're willing to figure out the right action and get through the week successfully in the 7's, you'll become the Chariot. Victorious and able to rest on the Sabbath.
I need to read up a bit in my Dictionary of Symbols. I know there are different meanings in from Hinduism and Daoism and so on. I was hoping the tarot numerology was closer to the Hermeticism and Jewish and Christian mysticism I have read about.

I'm not sure what Waite or current interpreters are channeling.

And I'm not even sure I have my own numerology straight.

The number 7 is particularly important. It's not just the weekly Sabbath but the end of creation, end of the age, the resurrection (8th after 7 miracles in John), the centerpiece of the Lampstand of the tabernacle, the profane imitation in the 7-headed beast. A very mystical and holy number, I'm sure.

There were 6 ceremonial stone jars of water that might represent human religious tradition (6 = number of human) that Jesus turned into wine (representing true spiritual transformation.)

Anyway, thank you so much, and I'll keep searching.
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The Fives always confused me a little as well until I started incorporating some basic aspects of Kabbalah / Tree of Life-based numerology into my Tarot studies. Maybe it will be helpful to you as well?

In Kabbalah, the number 5 corresponds to the fifth sephira (sphere) on the Tree of Life: Geburah, which variously translates as "strength" or "severity". It embodies a restrictive, correcting energy - kind of like a "bad cop", if you will. Keeping that in mind, the difficulties illustrated in the minor arcana 5's become easier to understand: they are all challengies to be overcome.

This site provides a clear, basic overview of the Tree of Life and its numerological correspondences:

https://teachmetarot.com/part-iii-ma...the-sephiroth/

And Ellen Goldberg's video tutorials on each card / set of cards are excellent:

http://www.howcast.com/guides/1216-h...d-tarot-cards/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelie View Post
I'm not sure what Waite or current interpreters are channeling.
That's because the Golden Dawn was a secret, masonic-esque group that threw everything including the kitchen sink into the tarot. Meaning alchemical and masonic symbolism as well as Hermetic, Christian and Jewish. And unfortunately for us, Waite assumed the only initiates would use the deck (should use the deck) and that meant he kept club secrets out of the book. In some cases, he even says "you understand why I did this..." no explanation! Because initiates *would* understand and any one else reading the book doesn't get to know. It's a secret.

You would have better luck with the Thoth deck, because Crowley never kept anything secret. He liked telling everyone what he'd done and why

But as Gaston just pointed out, Kabbalah has far more influence when it comes to any symbolism in the tarot, numbers included. And Kabbalah isn't quite the same as what you'll find in any of those other systems. If you really want to dive in deep, try the Qubalistic Tarot by Robert Wang (https://www.amazon.com/Qabalistic-Ta.../dp/0971559139).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaston D. View Post
The Fives always confused me a little as well until I started incorporating some basic aspects of Kabbalah / Tree of Life-based numerology into my Tarot studies. Maybe it will be helpful to you as well?

In Kabbalah, the number 5 corresponds to the fifth sephira (sphere) on the Tree of Life: Geburah, which variously translates as "strength" or "severity". It embodies a restrictive, correcting energy - kind of like a "bad cop", if you will. Keeping that in mind, the difficulties illustrated in the minor arcana 5's become easier to understand: they are all challengies to be overcome.

This site provides a clear, basic overview of the Tree of Life and its numerological correspondences:

https://teachmetarot.com/part-iii-ma...the-sephiroth/

And Ellen Goldberg's video tutorials on each card / set of cards are excellent:

http://www.howcast.com/guides/1216-h...d-tarot-cards/
Thank you so much, Gaston! I have some time off today, so I will take a look at these.

The "bad cop" idea doesn't fit in with the idea of grace (50 was the year of jubilee when slaves went free, land returned to original owners, and debts were forgiven); however, it does maybe hold with the 5 Books of the Law being hard and difficult, leading to something greater (Moses gave the law but was not allowed to enter the land of Promise).

What Thirteen said about the 7s when she so kindly adapted the 7s to my perspective in the post above is kind of affirmed by this quote from your first link:
Quote:
Netzach* (Victory/Endurance) provides the fortitude and determination to succeed in one’s endeavours and overcome obstructions or challenges. It deals with the emotions and feelings and the focussed concentration or control over same.* The Four Sevens of The Minor Arcana *also reside here.** All the Sevens in the Tarot carry the message of victory as a result of grim determination and stamina.
That's the required feedback, but my real feedback is this: Thank you!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelie View Post
That's the required feedback, but my real feedback is this: Thank you!
Happy to help! This forum has helped deepen my understanding of the relationship between Kabbalah and Tarot over the years so I'm glad to pay it forward.

I also think it helps to keep in mind what Thirteen said above about the "kitchen sink" aspect of the Golden Dawn-inflected Tarot system: There are a *lot* of different traditions/knowledge systems at play here, and I don't know if it's at all possible to definitively reconcile them all.

So maybe you shouldn't worry too much about trying to square Biblical numerology with the Kabbalah system (or any other system, for that matter): all of these traditions are going to overlap to some extent, but in the end it's a matter of choosing which particular correspondences work the best and make the most sense for you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
That's because the Golden Dawn was a secret, masonic-esque group that threw everything including the kitchen sink into the tarot. Meaning alchemical and masonic symbolism as well as Hermetic, Christian and Jewish. ... It's a secret.

You would have better luck with the Thoth deck, because Crowley never kept anything secret. He liked telling everyone what he'd done and why
The eclectic and hidden information in the RWS may give me more wiggle room, that is, be more compatible with Christian meditation, reflection, and readings.

I'll be honest (7 of Swords in my last daily draw!) and tell you I am afraid of the Thoth deck because of Crowley's reputation and because I fear it would not be Christian-compatible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaston D. View Post
I also think it helps to keep in mind what Thirteen said above about the "kitchen sink" aspect of the Golden Dawn-inflected Tarot system: There are a *lot* of different traditions/knowledge systems at play here, and I don't know if it's at all possible to definitively reconcile them all.

So maybe you shouldn't worry too much about trying to square Biblical numerology with the Kabbalah system (or any other system, for that matter): all of these traditions are going to overlap to some extent, but in the end it's a matter of choosing which particular correspondences work the best and make the most sense for you.
I am going for the overlap and Thirteen has helped so much with that in various posts that I have seen here at AT.

Truly, truly, I give you all a hearty "Thanks, y'all" from Georgia!
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Lightbulb Connolly Deck and Books


If your aim is to match up tarot with your Christianity, then forget Kabbalah. Go instead with Connolly. I'll add more on that below...
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelie View Post
The "bad cop" idea doesn't fit in with the idea of grace (50 was the year of jubilee when slaves went free, land returned to original owners, and debts were forgiven)
It *DOES* work if you think of it as "thy will be done." First consider it as "10" five times (the 10's which are the Wheel of Fortune) for the slaves, land owners and those in debt. Now consider the "5" done ten times for the slaveowners, landowners and those who'd loaned out the money. THEY lost all that. And THEY were the ones who had to take that loss with grace and say "thy will be done."

5's in the tarot are mostly about dealing with loss...but they're also about being a "good" winner. In the 5/Swords, neither those who have lost nor the winner are taking either with grace. The losers are sore and vowing vengeance (or seem to be) and the winner is gloating. What would the Hierophant say? He'd say there was a divine reason for the loss to the losers and a divine reason for the win to the winner and that both must be humble and accepting. The Talmud says that when the Red Sea drowned the Egyptians, god stopped the angels singing about it. And Jesus certainly wasn't in favor of winners boasting or losers whining. In Judeo-Christain thought, winners as well as losers have to accept that both happen for a reason, try to understand that reason, and accept god's will with grace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelie View Post
I am afraid of the Thoth deck because of Crowley's reputation and because I fear it would not be Christian-compatible.
Well, Crowley's reputation was fearsome in Edwardian times, not so much now. If you really go over what he did you'd say, "Lots of sex and drug and saying things to shock people...yawn." That kind of stuff, being done openly by a respectable gentleman scholar was "shocking! shocking! shocking!" back then, but "what else is new?" now.

That said, no, the Thoth deck is not Christian-compatible. The single most Christian compatible deck is the Connolly (http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/connolly/). If you really want to go with images and interpretations that are far more Christian focused, I'd get that deck and maybe, if it appeals to you, one or more of her tarot books. It's a lovely deck. Like looking at stained glass windows. And there's a Connolly study here on AT (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=36315)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaston D. View Post
In Kabbalah, the number 5 corresponds to the fifth sephira (sphere) on the Tree of Life: Geburah, which variously translates as "strength" or "severity". It embodies a restrictive, correcting energy - kind of like a "bad cop", if you will. Keeping that in mind, the difficulties illustrated in the minor arcana 5's become easier to understand: they are all challengies to be overcome.
This is pretty much my take on the fives as well. All of the fives have to do with a judgment or decision that needs to be made to resolve a conflict. Something needs to be cut out or discarded. With coins, not enough money to go around. With cups, emotional trauma and mountains from molehills. With batons, pure physical competition. With swords, an argument you can't win.

This also relates to traditional playing card reading, in which fives typically indicate some kind of illness, made more particular by the suit.
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