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lucifall  lucifall is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brightcrazystar
That is close to how I see it:

The bird is not a symbol of air, it is a symbol of the breathe of creation on the waters of life. This is why Scorpio is pictured as a bird.

Air is Waves, because the Ruach which moved across the waters and created the ripples of Creation
As Repeta writes: you know your stuff.
I really hardly can understand what you write, as it is Theory in a depth, which is beyond my understanding, which seems the result of years of hard study from your side on the subject.
It looks all very interesting for me, but also to difficult to absorb, what you really mean.
Maybe it is possible for you to write it in a language, so more people are able to understand it?
As we call it in Dutch: in Jip en Janneke- Language: When you explain something difficult to kids?

Scorpio is pictured as a bird, the reason why you connect the bird to water.
Also Death, connected with Scorpio wears a feather on his head.
This feather i connect with Maat, which is connected with Libra, an Air Sign.
The Bird on the Magician's table doesn't feel for me like the Scorpio bird on X and XXI, but more like the bird on the wallet of the Fool, the bird connected to Air. The Fool, the other feathered "guy".
Isn't Both Water and Air, more on it's place here, from your point of vieuw?
.
Please can you explain to me, why Scorpio also was pictured as a snake (earlier) and how this fits in this picture?
Why Scorpio has 3 pictured forms, snake, bird and Scorpio?

Maybe a bit off-topic here, but in connection with Maat and Libra, i arrive on a point which i (also) am not able to understand, but maybe you have an Idea on this:
All Zodiak-signs are connected with an animal, animal-human or humans.
Only Libra, is connected with a "thing"
Why is this, as it is?

Luci
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KariRoad  KariRoad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifall
Maybe a bit off-topic here, but in connection with Maat and Libra, i arrive on a point which i (also) am not able to understand, but maybe you have an Idea on this:
All Zodiak-signs are connected with an animal, animal-human or humans.
Only Libra, is connected with a "thing"
Why is this, as it is?
Luci
I've always wondered about Virgo, and personally believe it should be Inanna riding a winged Lion. After all, the Mutable signs feature extraordinary presentations, a centaur, twins, oddly joined fishes, and then, a girl. Something's not kosher about Virgo's image, and to me it is the too obvious Pagan image of Inanna. Also, Inanna and Isis are "related" and Spica (in Virgo) is the Star of Isis.

Also of worthy note: Libra has a Female holding the traditionally Male scales, and Aquarius has a Male carrying the traditionally Female water jug. That's a bit odd, and thus occult and esoteric in the symbolism, which to me means all the symbolism of the Zodiac is occult, and not the cutesy newspaper critters we get today.


FIRE
Ram
Lion
Centaur with bow

WATER
Crab
Scorpion (also Snake and Phoenix/Eagle)
Fishes

AIR
Female with Scales
Male Water Bearer
Twins

EARTH
Goat(fish)
Bull
Young Woman (???)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifall
......Scorpio is pictured as a bird, the reason why you connect the bird to water......Luci
The Eagle is an alternate symbol for Scorpio. There is a reference to Four Living Creatures in Ezekiel (also in Revelation): Lion, Ox, Man, and Eagle. Lion, Ox and Man obviously correspond to Leo, Taurus, and Aquarius, which are fixed signs. If the Creatures indeed represent the fixed signs, then by the process of elimination, the Eagle must correspond to Scorpio.
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brightcrazystar  brightcrazystar is offline
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Nashir is the Hebrew word in question translated as "Eagle." It technically means "carrion bird", not just Eagle. But that is the common bird used in Western Magick. Both Hawk and Vulture are also suitable and candidates for the word Nashir.

At least one Tradition uses Hawk as Nashir, for Horus is Mars, traditional ruler of Scorpio. Maut is a vulture goddess synonymous with Nuit. She is on the crown of the Souther kingdom, along with the Uraeus. she also adorns the headpiece of Ra Horakte, Horus of the Two Horizons, called Ra Hoor Khuit in some circles. Double vote for Horus, one including reference to Goddess Magnified, who as Isis, was maker of the Uraeus that killed Ra the Weaker.

I think Nashir is a bit of all three, for the eagle is a blind for Nashir, but one suitable to the metaphors of Alchemy in the RWS deck. This is interesting for Scorpio also has three forms.

The bird on the table is therefore left ambigious.
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For what it's worth, נשר is the Hebrew word translated as eagle. The first letter נ is the 8th simple letter, and Scorpio is the 8th Zodiacal sign. Also, the numerical value of נשר is 550, which reduces to 10, which is equal to the reduction and expansion of the number 13 of the Death card. Of course, Death also corresponds to נ (Scorpio).
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The Langenscheidt Hebrew Dictionary defines נשר as eagle, vulture, or any bird of prey; so a hawk would certainly qualify, as brightcrazystar stated.
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If hawk = eagle and birds in the tarot should be considered hawks or eagles, and these are all related to Scorpio, then why is Scorpio so important to the Fool and Magician and why do Scorpio birds appear on so many Swords cards?

I'm sorry if I've confused what you all are saying, but I think you are getting far too convoluted in your reasoning. Unlike Crowley, Waite seemed to do little with Gematria, focusing much more on the symbolism of the Tree of Life and the Shekinah.
Top   #37
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Scorpio in Strong Analysis GD.


"Nashir" (HB NShR) is a term for any carrion bird. It means "arial scavenger" a bird that will eat roadkill as opposed to one which will just eat fresh kills. This is Maut, Behutet, Nebhket and the "Nashir" on the flank of the Apis bull sacred to Osiris, signifying Amoun Ra. The eagle is sacred to Amoun Ra, and its use is still used by Masons. The vulture adjoined the uraeus serpent on the crown of Two Kingdoms, Hoot Suti (Horus Set) as Ra Horakhte (Horus of the two horizons)

"Akrab" is the scorpion. This is the word for "Scorpio" in Hebrew. This was a animal sacred to Selkhet and Set. She is the Goddess of Childbirth and the venom was used to ease the pain. As this defies the "penalty" of painful childbirth Eva and her daughters were inflicted with in the biblical myth, it makes sense that this defiance of God's edict would be indentifiable with Set, who defies the Gods, and redeems himself by further deifiance when Apep tries to destroy the Bark of Ra as he is being taken to his sentence. This allows him to rule, in union with Horus, as Ra-Horakhte.

Nachash is the serpent. Uraeus as the killer of Ra so Osiris could take his crown, which in turn condemned him to death by Set, but gave Horus TWO crowns; thus Ra Horakhte. The eyes of Horus are also Serpent headed goddess Uadjet who represent Hathor, his Wife and Home (Ahat-Hoor) and Thoth (Djuti), who was his guardian when he was hiding on the bank of the nile on the head of the crocodile sebek. (This is Hoor par kra-at, Horus not making words. or more commonly "Horus in Silence.")


Horus, Horus, Horus. Mars rules scorpio. Mars is the Imperator who installs the temple, invests the Hierophant, and carries greatest executive authority in the Order of the Chiefs. Horus is The Hiereus of the Temple. Ahhoriest (Horus in Flight) is the presence of the Hierophant when he steps from his Throne. Horus is the king of Ra manifest by his own will, in the higher and the lower - Ra Hoor Khuit, or if you want to be more accurate than French Egyptology of the late 1800's... Ra-Horakhte.

As for what Waite published, remember he was the biggest opponent to the publishing of ANY work, and severed many ties with people who betrayed their oath to keep inviolate the work of the Golden Dawn. What makes you think he would break that oath himself? I think he was looking for enough to give people an understanding, and was content to resign to the Great Work to a mutual thought exercise by the time he ended. But his reaction to Dr. Felkins was hardly one of someone who would publish the work himself without double and triple blinding it.

In my experience, and as an Intitiate, his work is the most blinded, or his thoughts the most weighed down by Christian thought fundamentals. But honestly, I think his work is blinded the way most people think Crowley's or Regardies is. His works are frankly invaluable, if you can read them and have enough other knowledge to see what his oaths prevent him from publishing. Remember, he was a Neophyte in G.D. before he was even a Mason. This was his first Oath and the one he regarded serious to Death.

Read "The Holy Kabbalah" and "Doctrine and Literature of the Kabbalah" by A.E. Waite if you think he was not influenced or applying Kabbalah to his work. Read the Serpent Myth. Read his some 12 books on Kabbalah. You will see he regards all of Egpytian context as a Atziluthic reality that made the way for the Yetziratic Reality of the Christ. The Grail Legends are the Briatic interpretation at the core of Masonic Mysticism.
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re-pete-a  re-pete-a is offline
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I too feel that this is going around in circles.
Pixies own statements about her inspirations for her pictogram's is from intuitive flashes. Not from deciphering the Kabala.

That may have been Waite , or maybe not.

I really don't think Pixie was that complicated.
It's also a known piece of information that if you go looking for spooks then anything you find will be an indication towards your agenda.

So I'm going back to the simple (Occums Razor, the simplest answer is probably the correct one.) Air, water, fire.


I am aware that there can be up to 7 layers in depth in really well hidden Occult,alchemic ,Hermetic secrets to keep the uninitiated at bay, but here, I don't feel that is the case.

There's always room for error , Though.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti
If hawk = eagle and birds in the tarot should be considered hawks or eagles, and these are all related to Scorpio, then why is Scorpio so important to the Fool and Magician and why do Scorpio birds appear on so many Swords cards?

I'm sorry if I've confused what you all are saying, but I think you are getting far too convoluted in your reasoning. Unlike Crowley, Waite seemed to do little with Gematria, focusing much more on the symbolism of the Tree of Life and the Shekinah.
Who is saying that birds in the Tarot should be considered hawks or eagles? It's just speculation about the bird on the Magician's table. Waite did use Biblical themes, and obviously the World and the Wheel of Fortune refer to the Living Creatures in Ezekiel. The Hebrew word translated as eagle in the King James Bible could just as well have been translated as vulture or hawk. So the bird on the table may refer to Scorpio, or maybe not.

The Tree of Life is from the Kabbalah, in which Waite was very interested, and much of Kabbalah involves a heavy use of gematria.

Take a look at Paul Foster Case's writings on the Tarot. He basically reveals what Waite tried to hide, and it does involve Hebrew orthography and gematria. If you have an aversion to Hebrew, you might try to take a little time to learn about the Hebrew alphabet and the basic principles of its orthography. It is much simpler than English in many ways, and it's kind of fun.
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