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Thoth vs. Liber T

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Thoth vs. Liber T


Thoth by Crowley & Harris vs. Liber T: Tarot of Stars Eternal by Serio & Negrini

The Liber T Tarot is most obviously a clone to the Thoth Tarot. If not the only “true clone” I’ve seen. The imagery found in the Liber T is simply a different rendition of Harris’ artistry. The most apparent difference between the two is Serio’s rounder and more fluid style compared to Harris’ geometric and angled illustrations. What really sets it apart from the original Thoth is the fact that the Liber T has scenic pips (or numbered cards). What’s neat about Serio’s rendition and addition to Harris’ artwork is that the Liber T’s scenic pips still contain Harris’ non-scenic pips, found below the additional imagery. Again, these pip illustrations may not be identical to Harris’ (due to differences in artistic interpretation), but are still ‘basically’ the same. Other than the scenic pips presented in the Liber T Tarot, the major difference between it and the Thoth Tarot is the name of the suits. The Thoth uses the titles of Wands, Cups, Swords and Pentacles, while the Liber T favours the titles of Scepters, Cups, Swords and Spheres. While the Thoth Tarot sports the Golden Cross as the card’s back image; the Liber T uses the art found on Serio’s ATU VIII - Adjustment. The Liber T backs are completely done in a blue scale with some decorative bordering, and like the Thoth’s back, are not reversible.

One of the biggest complaints I see in the online community about the Liber T is that Serio’s artwork does not seem to capture the same evocative response generated from Harris’ artwork. I agree that Serio’s artwork is not as bold or loud as the imagery found in Harris’ Thoth Tarot; but to some it may be a relief. I find that with the Thoth Tarot there is a lot going on in each card. Found mostly in the Major Arcana and Court Cards; not only is there the “main character/event,” but there is a plethora of symbols, in addition to the geometric patterns that can sometimes make up the foreground and background of each card. For some, it may be hard to find and stick with a focal point which can be difficult to decipher within a reading. Personally, I love Harris’ artwork found in the Thoth and rejoice in the multifaceted layers, but then there are also times when my eyes may want or need a rest. The Liber T is a nice alternative to the Thoth Tarot in this aspect. Serio really downplayed a lot of the geometric foregrounds and backgrounds, which can be sometimes difficult to get past. The Liber T cards make studying the Thoth a lot easier on the eyes. In place of the Thoth and Harris’ geometric backgrounds, Liber T and Serio seem to favour a star-lit sky where the astrological signs and planets make their appearance in the cards. This, I believe is where Liber T gets its full name: “Tarot of the Stars Eternal”.

Another complaint I’ve seen is that the Liber T Tarot does not include a “Keyword” at the base of the pip cards. I do not know the actual reason for this, but would assume that the creator Negrini did not find it necessary, as unlike the Thoth, the Liber T has scenic pips. Upon my comparison of the Thoth Tarot with the Liber T Tarot, I may have found other reasons. While comparing the Little White Books of the Thoth Tarot card descriptions to the Liber T’s, I found that Crowley’s Thoth Keywords weren’t always the ones chosen by Negrini. While the majority of differences were mostly alike in meaning, others seemed to add new dimensions to the Tarot than Crowley had referenced. The Liber T even added some new themes! I think the most remarkable additions in the Liber T’s LBW are those of the 8 of Cups: possibly representing anorexia, and 10 of Cups: possibly representing bulimia. Upon study of the cards you see that in the Liber T’s 8 of Cups there are two figures who look sickly-thin; and in the 10 of Cups, you see a thin woman standing before a large plate of food and a rather large (if not obese) person. In general, I think the Liber T really updated the meanings from the language used in Crowley’s time.

Then there is the issue of colour accuracy. There are some that will find with intensive studies of the Thoth that the Liber T doesn’t always seem to deliver the same colour scheme as denoted by Crowley’s Book of Thoth and other Golden Dawn/Esoteric teachings. I went through the Thoth and Liber T Tarots, laying out each card next to the other (Thoth Card Name &/or # | Liber T Card Name &/or #) and found this to be not 100% true. The colour patterns/schemas within both the Thoth and Liber T Tarots are basically the same. The only differences I noticed while doing this was that the majority of differences occur in the pip cards. While the Thoth just has the Suit Pip designs, the Liber T has expanded upon this, where Serio added some scenic imagery. In order to convey an accurate ‘scene’ for the pips, Serio would need a broader range of colours to depict a ‘realistic’ image. Without getting out a magnifying glass and studying the cards in a wide range of lights; I see this as being the only obvious difference in colouration.

While surfing the reviews found on Amazon US, anxiously awaiting the arrival of my Liber T Tarot, I read that there were concerns with some that the Liber T conveyed images that would depict images that were “Creepy, Pervy & Dark!” or that contained “bestiality”. First, let me assure you I did not find the first to be a personal issue, and the second claim (if true) may have only occurred in one card. As far as “creepy” and “dark” goes, I’ve seen the same thing said about the original Thoth Tarot and shall not discuss it here, as I do not understand that view. As for the aspect of “pervy”, I think that would depend on your personal views of human sexuality. To be frank, there is a very sexual aspect to the Liber T deck. As in the Thoth, there are semi-frequent, but never obscene, depictions of nudity. Nothing is ‘pornographic’, and any nudity is done in such a light fashion that nothing is even remotely comparable to “the real thing(s)”. Unlike the Thoth and its non-scenic pips, in the Liber T there are some references to sex: as in intercourse. The 6 of Cups in the Liber T depicts a male/gay couple (viewers left), a male-female/heterosexual couple (viewers center), and a female/lesbian couple (viewers right) obviously engaged in sensual relations. I found this delightful, as the act of sex is not (nor has it ever been) solely for the Male/Female coupling (with the exception of the act of sex as needed for natural conception)! The only indication I’ve found within the Liber T of “bestiality” is present in the 10 of Cups, where to the viewer’s right there is a woman (who happens to be on her hands and knees, holding one arm out where a black bird is perched), and close behind her a donkey (who happens to be arched over her, and is licking the woman’s head). In this image, it is not detailed enough to be sure that there is an act of bestiality occurring (thankfully). If it was intended (nothing in the Little White Book references it), it certainly fits with Crowley’s Book of Thoth’s commentary on this particular card:
“The work proper to water is complete: and disturbance is due. This comes from the influence of Mars in Pisces. Mars is the gross, violent and disruptive force [the donkey] which inevitably attacks every supposed perfection. His energy displays the greatest possible contrast with that of Pisces, which is both peaceful and spiritualized [the woman with bird]” (p. 201-202, 2011 printing).
I’m not particularly convinced that it is definitely an act of bestiality, but for anyone familiar with Crowley’s supposed colourful sexuality, it might not be a long stretch. It is possible that the donkey is not physically present, but represents a perversion within the woman’s mind.

Due to Serio’s more simplistic artwork I found some of the Liber T’s renditions of the classic Thoth cards capable of clarifying certain aspects of Harris’ Thoth artwork. For starters, even without knowing that Harris had issues depicting human faces, I feel that human facial expression was not her greatest asset. Serio’s facial expressions found within the Liber T Tarot are much more readable and realistic than those found in the Thoth Tarot. Upon further inspection, Harris’ facial expressions literally seem to be carved out of stone than out of (the sometimes sub-)human flesh. The Liber T really seems to deliver more variety of human emotion amongst the human characters in their Tarot. As for other clarification brought to me via the Liber T, let me note that I have not been working with the Thoth Tarot for exceptionally long, nor do I own the Large/Standard edition of the cards, only the Medium/Playing Card Sized Deck. Some of the images I found within the Liber T to be more clarifying may indeed be due to the smaller sized deck I own and work with. Regardless, what follows will be those cards/images I felt were further clarified within the Liber T Tarot. In the Liber T’s ATU VI – Lovers card, I was able to make out the word “Thelema” on the cupid’s bag of arrows much easier than I could straining my eyes on my Thoth. In the Liber T’s ATU XVII – The Star, the seven-pointed-star depicted in the upper left hand corner of the card reads “BABALON”, a letter in each of the star’s points. That I cannot even remotely see in my Thoth card. In ATU XIII – Death, I was able to make out the overturned Lilly and Rose much easier than in the Thoth, where Harris’ artwork led me to believe the overturned Rose was in actually an onion (Death = Change; it worked)! In the Liber T card of ATU XIV – Art, I was able to see that the person is a combination of Man and Woman (something indiscernible in Harris’ Thoth version); the Liber T adds symbols for Man (♂) and Woman (♀) on their chests. Within this card it was also more apparent that the two items that were being placed into the cauldron were those of Fire (Male) and Water (Female). In the Thoth version, Harris’ artwork led me to believe that it was lightning and Water. In the Liber T ATU XVIII – The Moon, it was much more apparent that the two Egyptian characters were holding the astrological symbols for Venus - ♀ - viewers Left and Mercury - ☿- viewers Right.

As far as imagery differences go, I found more than I expected between the Thoth and Liber T Tarots. I’m happy to report that the majority of differences occur in the pip cards; I’ve only found one major difference in one of the Major Arcanas, in two of the Aces, and one Court Card. The majority of differences I found were usually reversals of image position from the Thoth Tarot. At first, I thought it was the Liber T trying to make a statement; trying to switch up perspectives from the original. This theory was disqualified upon studying the 5 of Swords where the Pentagram is still reversed in the Liber T, with the apex (top point of Pentacle) still pointing down. The more I went through the cards, the more I found this theory was inconsistent.
• Found in ATU XIX – The Sun: the Thoth Tarot starts the Astrological Zodiac at 12-o’clock with Aries (as it is mostly referred to as the first Sun Sign), while Liber T starts at 12-o’clock with Scorpio.
• In the 4 of Wands/Scepters: Thoth has the depiction of the bird at 12-0’clock, while the Liber T depicts the goat at 12-o’clock.
• In the Ace of Disks/Spheres: the Thoth’s center of image displays the number 666 with 3 entwined circles in the shape of an upright triangle, the Liber T has the number 666 placed around the 3 edges of an unfolded cube.
• In the 2 of Disks/Spheres: the Thoth has the alchemical symbols for the Elements in the center circles of the Yin-Yang, while the Liber T does not! –This particularly affected me, as I learned that the Yin-Yang was composed of two colours, usually opposites, to represent that within Nature, nothing is composed completely of one Element, but that within each contained a part (no matter how small) of its opposite: ex. Feminine-Masuline, Night-Day, etc. In the Thoth Tarot, the Yin-Yang’s were those of Fire & Water (Masculine & Feminine; the Primal Polarity) and Air & Earth (Masculine & Feminine).
• In the 5 of Disks/Spheres: the Liber T changes the original Thoth arrangement of the Elemental Tattvas, keeping Spirit (the black oval) at the apex (top point of Pentagram).
• In the 6 of Disks/Spheres: the Thoth has a Solar (equilateral/equal-armed) Cross behind the petals of the Rose with its barbs (representing direction: North, South; East, West and/or the Elements/Earth), the Liber T has a reversed mini-Golden Cross behind the petals of the Rose without its barbs. –That irritates me personally; while I have learned the design of the Golden Cross and can fully appreciate it for what it stands for, I still have an issue with the Christian Cross (longer vertical arm than the horizontal) and can much better identify with the Solar Cross (equal lengths of the horizontal and vertical arms) – often representing the balance of the Four Elements (Earth, Air, Fire & Water or Direction).
• In the 7 of Disks/Spheres: in the Thoth the Qabalistic arrangement places helmets/heads and bulls heads within the Spheres on the Tree, while the Liber T uses all bull heads/Taurus symbols - ♉.
• In the 8 of Disks/Spheres: the Thoth depicts all flowers with a five-pointed-star center on the Tree, while the Liber T has imagery of sliced-into pomegranates. It is interesting to note that the arrangement of seeds found within a pomegranate are in the shape of a five-pointed star. –I like this card a lot, as it tells the story of Persephone, with her decent into the Underworld, taking Hades as her husband; while her mother Demeter remains ruling over Earth, one side of the landscape around her depicts Fall (the time Persephone is away from her, at home in the Underworld) and Spring (the time of the year Persephone is allowed to return to the Realm of Earth to be with her mother).
• In the 9 of Disks/Spheres: the Thoth version the Tree is depicted with multiple faces in the Spheres, while the Liber T uses planetary symbols.
• In the 10 of Disks/Spheres: the Thoth Tarot has an assortment of symbols on all of the spheres of the Tree, the Liber T chose to remove the symbols from spheres 1-6, swapped the symbols for 7 & 8, and used totally different symbols for 9 & 10.
• In the Ace of Swords the Liber T inverted the sword (handle up, point down) from the Thoth Tarot’s depiction (point up, handle down).
• In the 6 of Swords: in the Thoth the Golden Cross is right side up (where the elongated arm is on the bottom), in the Liber T the Golden Cross is upside down (the elongated arm is on the top).
• In the King of Swords: the Thoth has 3 golden birds depicted in the viewers right hand corner, in the Liber T there are 2 black birds.
• Finally, in the Ace of Cups: In the Thoth the center of the Cup has 3 entwined circles in the shape of a triangle, the Liber T chose to forgo that symbol and use in its place the word/Crowley’s Goddess ‘BABALON’.

Overall I really like the Liber T deck, despite its differences from the original Thoth. Is it a deck for die-hard Thoth purists? -I would think not. Is it a deck for beginners of Thoth study? –I would hesitate to recommend knowing the obvious differences I have discovered. I would suggest that any newcomer to Thoth Tarot try out and get familiar with the original Crowley-Harris Thoth Tarot. If, for whatever reason, the student was so ardently opposed to the imagery of the original Thoth Tarot; then perhaps this would be a good alternative, keeping in mind all the differences they may have to overcome/compensate for.
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a_gnostic  a_gnostic is offline
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Because you have no replies to this amazing article you've written, I'm writing to say that I found it in a search and have saved it for later reference. I'm studying the Thoth and related literature, though I'm what you would consider a "rank beginner" at this point. I don't yet have a copy of Liber T but anticipate that there is one somewhere in my future. Your analysis here will doubtless make that experience a lot more interesting. Thanks in advance!
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Just a minor rant. The review states that the Liber T does not have "keywords" on the pips. Apparently most people think that the words on the Thoth pips are keywords. That's not what they are at all; they are titles, not keywords. There is a big difference. The purpose of keywords is to jog the memory about the divinatory meanings of the cards. The pip titles represent the general trends of the decans. For example, the Three of Cups is Mercury in Cancer. The Golden Dawn title is "Lord of Abundance," which is supposed to be descriptive of the middle decan of Cancer. Crowley simplifies this to simply "Abundance." Titles are certainly not necessary; neither are they necessary on the courts and trumps. Yet it is amusing that many people trim the Thoth in order to get rid of the "unprofessional" looking "keywords," when, in fact, they constitute one of the advantages of the Thoth over other esoteric decks, most notably the Rider-Waite, for which I still need to keep a chart of the pips' decans and titles handy. The Liber T's use of scenes instread of titles is actually an unintentional step "backward" toward the Rider-Waite, whose philosophy was that certain things, such as the decans and titles, were not to be revealed to anyone other than qualified initiates.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
...Apparently most people think that the words on the Thoth pips are keywords. That's not what they are at all; they are titles, not keywords... The Golden Dawn title is "Lord of Abundance," which is supposed to be descriptive of the middle decan of Cancer. Crowley simplifies this to simply "Abundance."...
I'm not sure that I understand the difference between a "title" and a "keyword".

Liber T does show the Three of Cups' title as Abundance, but that's also the first term listed as (what I assume are) a list of interpretations given for the card's central(?) planet/sign decanate:
"Mercury/Cancer: Abundance, plenty, success, passive success; keen perception, memory; good luck and fortune; love, kindness, liberality."
That seems to be generally true for all of the pips' titles. Liber T does list keywords for other types of attributions (the Tree of Life and other astrological pairings). Were the pip titles selected from the "central decan" (not sure what you call that) for convenience or consistency, or was the selection intended to emphasize that attribution over others?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a_gnostic View Post
I'm not sure that I understand the difference between a "title" and a "keyword".

Liber T does show the Three of Cups' title as Abundance, but that's also the first term listed as (what I assume are) a list of interpretations given for the card's central(?) planet/sign decanate:
"Mercury/Cancer: Abundance, plenty, success, passive success; keen perception, memory; good luck and fortune; love, kindness, liberality."
That seems to be generally true for all of the pips' titles. Liber T does list keywords for other types of attributions (the Tree of Life and other astrological pairings). Were the pip titles selected from the "central decan" (not sure what you call that) for convenience or consistency, or was the selection intended to emphasize that attribution over others?
Titles (describing the general trends of the decans) certainly may be used as divinatory keywords in the same way that a suitable tree branch may be used as a walking stick. You are very much a literalist (a good thing, actually), a_gnostic. Would it be okay if I were to say that the title refers to the esoteric significance of the card, whereas a keyword refers to its exoteric use? The title (esoteric trend of a decan) does not change from reading to reading, whereas the nuances of a keyword (a memory-jogger for divination) are highly variable. I'm by no means a fortune-teller (not sure if I even believe in it), so divinatory keywords are not something in which I am particularly interested.

By the way, does "Lord of Abundance" sound like a keyword to you?

ETA. Each astrological sign occupies a 30° arc of a theoretical circle (the zodiac). There are three notable 10° subarcs (decans) within a 30° arc: 0° to 10° (first decan), 10° to 20° (middle or central decan), 20° to 30° (last decan). The decan of the Three of Cups happens to be the 10° to 20° (second or middle) decan of Cancer.

ETA. There is a total of 36 pips numbered from 2 through 10. Each pip is assigned a decan (10°). Since 36 x 10° = 360°, these pips cover the entire zodiac.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
Titles (describing the general trends of the decans) certainly may be used as divinatory keywords in the same way that a suitable tree branch may be used as a walking stick.
I like that analogy, worth keeping in mind in general with respect to divinatory keywords.

Quote:
You are very much a literalist (a good thing, actually), a_gnostic.
Guess I do become more literal when I'm trying to figure something out. That could admittedly become annoying if taken too far...

Quote:
Would it be okay if I were to say that the title refers to the esoteric significance of the card, whereas a keyword refers to its exoteric use? The title (esoteric trend of a decan) does not change from reading to reading, whereas the nuances of a keyword (a memory-jogger for divination) are highly variable...
That's a really helpful perspective: esoteric vs. exoteric. That I can wrap my head around!

Quote:
By the way, does "Lord of Abundance" sound like a keyword to you?
Where do you get "Lord of"? My Three of Cups in the Hermetic deck has that in the title, but my Thoth just says "Abundance". Regardless, when I see "Lord of", that makes me think someone's (AC) just being a bit pompous.

Quote:
ETA. Each astrological sign occupies a 30° arc...
I believe I understand the mechanics of decans, but I don't (yet) understand their significance.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a_gnostic View Post
......Where do you get "Lord of"? My Three of Cups in the Hermetic deck has that in the title, but my Thoth just says "Abundance". Regardless, when I see "Lord of", that makes me think someone's (AC) just being a bit pompous.
It's typical Golden Dawn pomposity from Book T.


Quote:
I believe I understand the mechanics of decans, but I don't (yet) understand their significance.
I don't have a decent grasp of that either. I just take it that "Lord of Abundance" is the GD interpretation of the Mercury in Cancer decan and pretty much leave it at that. However, I might gain a little extra information about the card from a consideration of the influence of Mercury (psychopomp, patron god of thieves, etc.) in water (soul, emotions, etc.).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
It's typical Golden Dawn pomposity from Book T.
Aha! I'm using Liber θ: Tarot Symbolism & Divination. It's a bit more extensive but seems to include less pomposity.

ETA: which, by the way, is interesting, in that this may indicate that The Hermetic Tarot gets its titles from Book T, whereas Thoth and Rosetta may be from Book θ.
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A good example of the difference between a title and a keyword can be found in the Three of Swords, called by the Golden Dawn the Lord of Sorrow, shortened by Crowley to Sorrow. For a while this card gave me trouble, as it seemed to me like this was a card that "seemed" to fit more at the end of the suit, where the energy was spent, until I asked about it in this thread

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=176860

Quoted in that thread, Scion said it really well:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scion

Gerald Suster has a lovely riff in his book on the Thoth about this card as the Lord of Sorrow: he points out that the 3 of Swords isn't about Suffering as in "waaaahhh I'm sad!" or "Rats I should've known he was cheating" but more an awareness of the price we pay to be alive. It is Suffering in the Mahayana sense: Suffering which always arises from Desire, the same Desire which is the underpinning of all Material Life. It's Suffering on a cosmic scale, global. The pain in Truth... I always see it as a reminder that part of being a conscious mind is accepting the pain that is a manifest part of living, not in a fatalistic sense, but in a gnostic sense. And in context it can be a beautiful positive uplifting card.
Aeon also quoted this great text about the card:

http://hermetic.com/crowley/little-e...th/sorrow.html

Sorrow, in this case, is clearly a title, and not a keyword meant to jog memory, in a Doreen Virtue-esque way. The meaning of a card cannot always be taken as the face value of the title.

I do like the portrayal of Satiety. Although I wouldn't really call it bulimia, a surfeit is what I get from this card, and a plate of food works well as such.
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You sent me off in several useful directions, closrapexa, and I'm beginning to understand the rationale for the GD titles. At the least, I have a better idea how to use them in asking questions about cards as part of their study.

Crowley's Sorrow is making no sense to me at the moment, so I'll come back to that (and his other "Little Essays") another time. The thread you referenced, however, is quite helpful now. For the Three of Swords, it makes good sense.

More than that, it suggests that I need to keep the referenced contexts for each card in mind when seeking to understand the divinatory meanings. For example, Saturn, Libra, and Binah are attributed to this card. I don't know enough astrology yet to deal with those contexts but have picked up enough about the Sephiroth to understand that Binah is so far along the path from Malkhut to Kether that the words given as meanings should be interpreted at a high level of abstraction with great attention paid to the subtleties. I think that's basically what you were trying to show me with your quote of Scion.

Now I see a clear advantage to having the titles printed on the cards! They're not at all trivial "prompts" nor mnemonics but require much understanding to fully appreciate them. I'm not sure I'd want to use a Liber T deck over a Thoth deck now.

It's interesting that you quoted Scion. I didn't know he existed until much earlier today and had already gone looking for him here on AEclectic. Evidently he hasn't posted (as Scion) since last year, yet he still seems recently active in public Tarot events irl, and I saw recent evidence that he's still teaching. (I became concerned that something precipitous may have happened to him and went looking.) This all caused me to pay really close attention to the quote you posted here. Everything happens for a reason...
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