Aeclectic Tarot
Tarot Cards & Reviews Free Tarot Readings Tarot Books Tarot Card Meanings Tarot Forum

using elemental dignities

  > Aeclectic Tarot Forum > Tarot Special Interest > Thoth Tarot


 
Storm82's Avatar
Storm82  Storm82 is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 13 Mar 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 1,377
Storm82 
using elemental dignities


I thing using elemental dignities when you read is very interesting
but what element is linked to what cards? in moste cases its simple (I use GD) but in other its hard to find the answer in black and white.

you that use the golden dawn system and crowley tarot, what element do you link to the fortune card (10)? and WHY??
Top   #1
PrincessPaulina  PrincessPaulina is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 04 Nov 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 505
PrincessPaulina 

Using Elements is simple with the suits, since these are the same in *most* decks (I have seen a few where the Water & Air suits are 'reversed', though others on this forum have noted that the Cups=Air/Water=Swords may have predated our current RWS & Thoth attributions).

For Majors, the Elemental Dignity follows the Astrological Sign or Planetary Ruler attributed to the card.
Today, the Wheel is most commonly attributed to Jupiter, planetary ruler of Sagittarius, which would therefore relegate it to the element of Fire.

Personally, I found it simplest to just memorize the elements for the Majors, when I was 1st starting out with Elemental Dignities.
PS: the trickiest one for me to "get" was Judgement, which is associated with Scorpio, but still considered to be ruled by Mars (Fire), which was the Planetary Ruler of this sign before Pluto was 'discovered'.
Top   #2
Zephyros's Avatar
Zephyros  Zephyros is offline
Jedi
 
Join Date: 31 Jan 2004
Location: Israel
Posts: 8,179
Zephyros 

I thought Judgement didn't have an astrological association, being on of the three elemental trumps, together with the Fool and the Hanged Man.
Top   #3
PrincessPaulina  PrincessPaulina is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 04 Nov 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 505
PrincessPaulina 

Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
I thought Judgement didn't have an astrological association, being on of the three elemental trumps, together with the Fool and the Hanged Man.

There are definitely more than just 1 system of Elemental attribution -- as I noted in my previous post, for example, the Air/Water discrepancy for the Swords/Cups attribution in some decks.

From the perspective of a very modern RWS approach (taking into account the 'discovery' of Pluto) my copy of "Tarot and Astrology" (by Corrine Kenner), states that Pluto, ruler of Scorpio, is associated with the Judgement card, and "corresponds to the element of fire."

Of course, both the studies of Tarot and Astrology are much older than the book I am citing, so there are bound to be alternative "ways of thinking" for both disciplines -- such as Vedic vs. Western astrology ; Thoth vs. RWS numbering & card meanings, etc.

I've seen the "3 Elemental Trumps" -- as per Aleister Crowley, 'translated' for modern readers by Lon Milo Duquette.
This system would also include 7 Planetary Trumps (while we know, for a fact, there to be at least 9 Planets in our Solar System)

But if I'm already going to incorporate other systems (such as EDs) into my Tarot readings, then at some point I've got to settle on a system, and stick with it, otherwise it defeats the fixed nature of a "system".
As the OP did not specify which system they preferred, I went with the more 'inclusive' one, which incorporates all 9 Planets, and 4 Elements.
Top   #4
Richard's Avatar
Richard  Richard is offline
Le Mat
 
Join Date: 21 Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 6,587
Richard 

Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
I thought Judgement didn't have an astrological association, being on of the three elemental trumps, together with the Fool and the Hanged Man.
Conventional academic astronomy recognizes 8 planets. If you toss in the Sun and Moon, you get 10. This is enough to cover the 3 Mothers plus 7 Doubles. Some astrologers insist on using all 10. However, this destroys the elegant use of the three divisions of the alphabet to cover all 22 paths. Anyhow, I regard the astrological terminology used in this connection as metaphorical. The notion of the 7 classical planets is more poetic and mythological than astronomical.
Top   #5
Richard's Avatar
Richard  Richard is offline
Le Mat
 
Join Date: 21 Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 6,587
Richard 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessPaulina View Post
......But if I'm already going to incorporate other systems (such as EDs) into my Tarot readings, then at some point I've got to settle on a system, and stick with it, otherwise it defeats the fixed nature of a "system".
As the OP did not specify which system they preferred, I went with the more 'inclusive' one, which incorporates all 9 Planets, and 4 Elements.
Before deciding on a system, it might be a good idea to find out exactly why some Trumps are considered elemental, others planetary, and still others zodiacal. It is by no means an arbitrary classification based on whim or personal preference.
Top   #6
PrincessPaulina  PrincessPaulina is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 04 Nov 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 505
PrincessPaulina 
using elemental dignities


Quote:
Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
Before deciding on a system, it might be a good idea to find out exactly why some Trumps are considered elemental, others planetary, and still others zodiacal. It is by no means an arbitrary classification based on whim or personal preference.

Does it REALLY matter, when I'm in the middle of a Tarot spread?
For example a Triad, such as:
2 Wands / 6 Cups / Judgement

From the ED perspective, at this point I am most interested in knowing whether the flanking Judgement & 2 Wands place the central card (6 Cups) in an ill-dignified position?
According to my system, they do, and as long as I remember that Judgement=Fire, the rest is really irrelevant!
(Unless I want to delve into much deeper waters having to do with history / mythology / science, etc. -- which is all very commendable, respectable, and scholarly -- BUT the average Querent doesn't give a rat's 'behind', and just wants to know if their Significant Other is likely to return...)
Top   #7
Michael Sternbach's Avatar
Michael Sternbach  Michael Sternbach is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 30 Aug 2014
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 942
Michael Sternbach 

Already in Hellenistic Astrology, the then known planets were seen as imbued with Aristotelian qualities, which implicitly made them equivalent to the elements. Thus later, for Raymond Lull and subsequently in Medieval Medicine, Mars (being hot and dry) represented Fire, Venus (cold and moist) Water, Jupiter (hot and moist) Air, Saturn (cold and dry) Earth. Mercury is a more complex mixture of qualities; he could be seen as quintessential or etheric, although, according to an influential lore he is predominantly earthy. The Sun and the Moon are representing Fire and Water, respectively, of course.

Thus we get:
I = Quintessence or Earth
II = Water
III = Water
X = Air
XVI = Fire
XIX = Fire
XXI = Earth

There have been various attempts made by modern astrologers to incorporate the trans-Saturnian planets into the aforesaid scheme of the qualities/elements, however, no consensus has been reached so far.

Regarding the outers' correspondences to the Major Arcana, there is no generally agreed upon system either, but the most popular view seems to assign them to those three Trumps which have no planetary associations in the GD system traditionally, so that Uranus now corresponds with The Fool, Neptune with The Hanged Man and Pluto with Judgement (The Aeon) - which quite makes sense astrologically as Uranus stands for unconventionality and unpredictability, Neptune for surrender to a higher force, Pluto for death and resurrection. Also the traditional association of the three Trumps with Air, Water and Fire ties in quite well with this.
Top   #8
Richard's Avatar
Richard  Richard is offline
Le Mat
 
Join Date: 21 Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 6,587
Richard 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessPaulina View Post
Does it REALLY matter, when I'm in the middle of a Tarot spread?
For example a Triad, such as:
2 Wands / 6 Cups / Judgement

From the ED perspective, at this point I am most interested in knowing whether the flanking Judgement & 2 Wands place the central card (6 Cups) in an ill-dignified position?
According to my system, they do, and as long as I remember that Judgement=Fire, the rest is really irrelevant!
(Unless I want to delve into much deeper waters having to do with history / mythology / science, etc. -- which is all very commendable, respectable, and scholarly -- BUT the average Querent doesn't give a rat's 'behind', and just wants to know if their Significant Other is likely to return...)
Sorry, I must be in the wrong forum.

You are, of course, correct about most querents not giving a rat's @$$ about the technical stuff. Why should they? However, my personal opinion is that the reader should indeed care about such things, especially if they are using a deck whose design depends on strict adherence to a particular system, such as Thoth. I know that my ideas about this are considered laughable by many (most?) readers, and I would not dare express them in certain forums, as I have learned from unpleasant experiences therein.
Top   #9
Michael Sternbach's Avatar
Michael Sternbach  Michael Sternbach is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 30 Aug 2014
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 942
Michael Sternbach 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
I know that my ideas about this are considered laughable by many (most?) readers, and I would not dare express them in certain forums, as I have learned from unpleasant experiences therein.
Missa can. Missa no care.
Top   #10




 


 


Tarot Cards & Reviews Free Tarot Readings Tarot Books Tarot Card Meanings Tarot Forum
Aeclectic Tarot Forum Links
· Tarot
· Tarot Special Interest
· Beyond Tarot
· Forum Library

Aeclectic Tarot Categories
· Angel Decks
· Dark & Gothic Decks
· Goddess Decks
· Fairy Decks
· Doreen Virtue Decks
· Beginner Decks
· Cat Decks
· Pagan & Wiccan Decks
· Ancient Egyptian Decks
· Celtic Decks
· Lenormand Decks
· Rider-Waite Decks
· Marseilles Decks
· Thoth Decks
· Oracle Decks
· List All Decks
· Popular Tarot Decks
· Available Decks
· Tarot Books
· What's New

Copyright © 1996 - 2019 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us.