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VII of Cups Symbolism

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Originally Posted by Abrac View Post
I don't have the book but I have a PDF. What section of the book is it in?
If I understood what Ruby Jewel is referring to, it is in the passage about the Prince of Disks:

Quote:
The error of Christian Mystics on this point has been responsible for more cruelty, misery, and collective insanity than all others put together; its poison can be traced even in the teaching of Freud, who assumed that the Unconscious was “the devil”, whereas in fact it is the instinct which expresses, beneath a veil, the inherent Point-of- View of each, and, properly understood, is the key to Initiation, and a hint of what seed may blossom and fructify as the “Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel”. For “Every man and every woman is a star”.
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Originally Posted by Zephyros View Post
If I understood what Ruby Jewel is referring to, it is in the passage about the Prince of Disks:
That is it. Thank you Zephyros. I feel that the halo is a generic symbol which means pretty much the same throughout. I also noted that the Hanged Man has one around his head although it is a different color...not sure what the colors mean.

I had actually answered this earlier today and my cat deleted it. She likes to lay on my keyboard and stretch out her arms (laugh)....plus my computer does this a lot....very discouraging, and I usually have to give it a rest before I am inspired to rewrite it....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abrac View Post
I don't have the book but I have a PDF. What section of the book is it in?
Abrac please accept my apology for being remiss in responding to your email. I answered it earlier today when I read it but my cat, Wilma Fay, deleted it accidentally.....sometimes I have to wait awhile to retry...as it is rather frustrating. But you see above that it was answered by Zephros....and his reference is the correct one.
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Okay, I see the it now.
"The description is even happier than that given by the Qabalah, although in every way congruous with it. Practical considerations are never absent from Chinese thought, even at its most abstruse and metaphysical. The fundamental heresy of the Black Lodge is contempt for "the world, the flesh, and the devil," all which are essential to the plan of the Universe; it is cardinal to the Great Work for the Adept so to order affairs that “even the evil germs of Matter shall alike become useful and good."

The error of Christian Mystics on this point has been responsible for more cruelty, misery, and collective insanity than all others put together; its poison can be traced even in the teaching of Freud, who assumed that the Unconscious was "the devil," whereas in fact it is the instinct which expresses, beneath a veil, the inherent Point of View of each, and, properly understood, is the key to Initiation, and a hint of what seed may blossom and fructify as the "Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel." For “Every man and every woman is a star."
Can't say I agree that Crowley is talking here about the Waite-Smith 7 of Cups in this instance, but I can see a similarity in the "instinct which expresses, beneath a veil."

One has to wonder how Crowley arrives at his conclusion that all the ills of the world are the responsibility of Christian Mysticism. Did he do a survey?

Ruby Jewel, no email was sent on my part. Must've been someone else.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abrac View Post
Okay, I see the it now.
"The description is even happier than that given by the Qabalah, although in every way congruous with it. Practical considerations are never absent from Chinese thought, even at its most abstruse and metaphysical. The fundamental heresy of the Black Lodge is contempt for "the world, the flesh, and the devil," all which are essential to the plan of the Universe; it is cardinal to the Great Work for the Adept so to order affairs that “even the evil germs of Matter shall alike become useful and good."

The error of Christian Mystics on this point has been responsible for more cruelty, misery, and collective insanity than all others put together; its poison can be traced even in the teaching of Freud, who assumed that the Unconscious was "the devil," whereas in fact it is the instinct which expresses, beneath a veil, the inherent Point of View of each, and, properly understood, is the key to Initiation, and a hint of what seed may blossom and fructify as the "Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel." For “Every man and every woman is a star."
Can't say I agree that Crowley is talking here about the Waite-Smith 7 of Cups in this instance, but I can see a similarity in the "instinct which expresses, beneath a veil."

One has to wonder how Crowley arrives at his conclusion that all the ills of the world are the responsibility of Christian Mysticism. Did he do a survey?

Ruby Jewel, no email was sent on my part. Must've been someone else.
Abrac, you had asked me earlier to send you a section of the book....a simple request without ado, but I had not replied.

I doubt as well that Crowley had the Waite-Smith deck in mind; however, I am looking at the simple symbology inherent in all the cards....I believe that knowledge, as all knowledge, is pretty much shared within a culture, otherwise, symbols would not be what they are: the language of the collective unconscious. But, it seems to me we agree regarding the issue of the instinct/veil....which is our subject matter here.

I have contemplated the issue of the ills of the world ad infintum. It would be nice if one could point a finger at the "one true source".....religion, greed, inborn hate, the Devil.....and even if you could say "aha, it is this"...... how would you fix it? When I boil it down to the essence, I see the problem as simple as a "line drawn in the sand." Buddha gave us the key in his "Four Noble Truths": attachment (of any kind whatsoever, including beliefs, money, love....the whole gamut.) Crowley was no worse nor better than Freud or me or any of us....we all come and go with our attachments to our philosophies, our needs, and our beliefs.....the only thing that remains is love....or hate...nothing more......and that legacy is the only real choice we have.

All the items in the cups in the cloud remind me of all the attachments we have as human beings......Perhaps the instinct beneath the veil is about "waking up" to the real world....instead of the fantasy you see before you in the fog.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shardz View Post
Approaching the card in a more generalized fashion and mindset, the spirtual number seven represented here with the various aspects in place could also possibly allude to the seven Deadly Sins and/or the seven Divine Virtues. Choosing to shed the deeper esoteric meanings, which Waite was infamously known to do with the Minor Arcana (as he was obviously thinking about sex every 7 seconds), one can arrive at numerous meanings to suit the current relative spread in question.
I agree with you about the 7 deadly sins/divine virtues and even more that one can arrive at numerous meanings—different ones will suit a particular reading.

I read interactively and often ask the client what the 7 things are in their own life and about the feelings and attitude of the person depicted. The key seems to lie in what desires "tempt" us (Venus decan of Scorpio) and how we respond to them. We can ask what feelings and desires arise to challenge the mastery of the Chariot (VII)?

The thoughts clients have about the veiled figure are often the most intriguing. One woman had had a repeating nightmare with a veiled ghost who terrified her (she had the dream again the night before the reading). As she was in my ritual group, I had her journey (in a safe space) to meet the figure who turned out to be a guide who had been trying to help her. He no longer haunts her dreams, but rather became a strengthening force in her life. However, I would never assume that the meaning of her veiled figure would apply to anyone else. I recognize a significance similar to hers as a possibility but certainly not a probability for others.

Some see the veiled figure as a Christ figure (Tiphareth - the 6th sephiroth before encountering the 7th - Netzach) or even as the ultimate illusory trap. This card in the Minors epitomizes to me, Tarot as "Mirror of the Soul" (reflections of soul-stuff) when a person is willing to delve deeply into what it is doing in their spread.

In my own readings, the card has meant many different things over the years, so I always try to look at it afresh, while keeping in mind its core of 'illusory success' and the power of the imagination for good or ill. For the Golden Dawn this card was 'external splendor brought to nothing'—which is especially true when dealing with mundane matters. The Venus decan of Scorpio has been described as the 'gleam on stagnant water'. Personally, I look to the other cards in a spread to see whether or not the person is ready and able to dive in, carry or manifest these visions of the imagination.

[As someone in the Venus in Scorpio club I certainly relate to the dangers of Crowley's 'debauch,' but find it applies more strongly when I'm using the Thoth deck than the RWS.]
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Quote:
Crowley (Book IV, p. 120):
"In the darkness this smoke seems to take strange shapes, and we may hear the crying of beasts. . . . We gasp and tremble, beholding what foul and unsubstantial things we have evoked! . . . Arise in our imagination those terrifying or alluring phantasms which throng the Astral Plane. This smoke represents the Astral Plane, which lies between the material and the spiritual. . . . Those things are themselves false. If the student once take any of these things for truth, he must worship it, since all truth is worshipful. In such a case he is lost; the phantom will have power over him; it will obsess him. . . . But the worst of all phantasms are the moral ideas and the religious ideas. . . . All these phantoms, of whatever nature, must be evoked, examined and mastered."

Third Decan of Scorpio:

Picatrix: "This is a face of evil works and taste, and joining oneself with women by force and with them being unwilling."

Agrippa: "It is the signification of drunkenness, fornication, wrath, violence and strife."

Note: These classic meanings for the decans were not followed religiously by the GD, although they did have some influence.
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jsgrrchg  jsgrrchg is offline
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When this card shows up i ask the querent to decide wich of all those cups likes the most, then i interpret using that information (sorry for my english)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgrrchg View Post
When this card shows up i ask the querent to decide wich of all those cups likes the most, then i interpret using that information (sorry for my english)
Yes! That works quite well. I sometimes ask which cup scares them the most - depending on their reaction to the card.
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A little late, I see the last post was 6 days ago... Nevertheless, I wanted to add my 2¢. I see the figure with the halo as 'any spiritual doctrine,' and I view the wreath with skull on the cup as 'victory over death' - perhaps long life? OR 'victory over, and DEATH of,' some enemy or other - perhaps revenge?
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