Starting with the Thoth Tarot

caridwen said:

My apologies I can't seem to find where he explains - would you be so kind as to direct me to the passage where he outlines what he specifically devised the Thoth for?

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It sounds like the idea annoys you I just had a quick look through the Book of Thoth and couldn't find something to give you but I read the book often (in an attempt to understand it) and when I find it I'll let you know.

It has been interesting reading this forum. I like to get a feel for a forum before I post and nowadays, I don't post unless it has something to do with the topic of the forum. By that I mean, I have no interest in socialising in the other forum sections like I would once have done.

But the thing that interests me most out of the things Ive observed, is that there appears to be three kinds of tarot readers here. There are the ones who put more faith in intuition and don't seem overly concerned with research or doing things in a specifically rigid manner. Then there are the people who want to adhere to tradition, and like to try and understand the cards in the same way as their creator would have. The rest fall somewhere in between those two categories

I lean towards the second type. Im pretty sure just from the way that Crowley wrote that he for one wouldn't be too happy at the idea of his cards being so open in their interpretation and use. In the Book of Thoth he is very specific about what the cards mean and how they should be used (although I can make neither head nor tail of his card laying method, anyone help with that?).
On the other hand I do believe that the tarot must be to some extent unique to each individual. As Crowley himself said "one mans universe is not another mans universe".
It's a difficult issue and one I often wrestle with myself. But there is already another topic for this on this forum so I'll just leave it there.
I share my thoughts on the matter here only to assure you that Im absolutely not someone who would ever say that their methods are wrong. That kind of thing is ludicrous in my opinion. If a method works, then it's a good method as far as Im concerned. But at the same time, I feel the intentions of a decks creator should be known and understood.

Anyway... <3

The card laying method.

That's the opening of the key. isn't it?

Ignore it.
Go for much smaller spreads, quicker too.

I think I read that you had recently started with this deck.
The opening of the key is not a spread to start with.

Try three cards.
Past present future.
See what you can make of that.

Lillie said:

The card laying method.

That's the opening of the key. isn't it?

Ignore it.
Go for much smaller spreads, quicker too.

I think I read that you had recently started with this deck.
The opening of the key is not a spread to start with.

Try three cards.
Past present future.
See what you can make of that.

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Nah Ive had this deck when I was 16. Im just interested in learning more about the other elements in Crowley's philosophy like the Kabbalah and astrology and understanding exactly where Crowley was coming from. I feel this knowledge will enhance my use of the cards which I would describe as "adequet" at the moment.

The spread I was referring to I believe is a Golden Dawn spread (although it may not be the same in exact detail). It involves splitting the deck into four piles and finding the significator in one of them. If the querent is found in a certain pile then it relates to a certain matter. The pile is then spread out and a story made from it.

But I find the way that Crowley explains this method confusing to say the least. An example of this is that you are meant to read the cards in the direction that the significator (a court card) is facing. But what are you meant to do with court figures who face the front of the card? That is one example, but there are many more. It just seems very vague.

Another thing I have looked into in recent months is "elemental dignitaries". I can find frustratingly little information on this method aside from a few websites and frankly, I don't trust random websites. Id rather have a good book that explains it to me.

And that... is just a glimpse at the chaotic state my mind is in with regards to the tarot

Hang on, I'll get BoT.

By the way, the title of this thread is what made me think you were first starting with the thoth...

Yeah.

It is the opening of the key (I never use it, I forget it's there in the book)
What you describe is the first operation out of about 5 (I think) which makes up the full spread.

It's long, it's complicated.
If you really want to use it then you will find info on it on the net

Try supertarot, they have a load on elemental dignities too.

As for learning the caballah and all that, just take it a bit at a time.
You don't have to learn it all at once.
I have been learning this deck or 25 years.
Still learning now.
Still wouldn't bother with the opening of the key.

Lillie said:

Hang on, I'll get BoT.

By the way, the title of this thread is what made me think you were first starting with the thoth...

Yeah.

It is the opening of the key (I never use it, I forget it's there in the book)
What you describe is the first operation out of about 5 (I think) which makes up the full spread.

It's long, it's complicated.
If you really want to use it then you will find info on it on the net

Try supertarot, they have a load on elemental dignities too.

As for learning the caballah and all that, just take it a bit at a time.
You don't have to learn it all at once.
I have been learning this deck or 25 years.
Still learning now.
Still wouldn't bother with the opening of the key.

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Heh, yeah I suppose the thread title is misleading.

Thanks for your suggestions. Im not in any rush to learn Crowley's card laying method and it does seem extremely daunting especially since there are at least three times that he writes "*if such and such happens* abandon the divination".

I mostly use the spreads suggested in "Keywords for the Crowley Tarot". I find that once I know a spread off by heart, I can achieve far better results.

Welcome to AT Dave, nice to see more Scotland here

About elemental dignities, I think 'the' book most people refer to is Book T by Mathers, which you can find online. I found the site Lillie recommended useful too.

The rules are very simple to understand in principle, not necessarily that simple to use in practice. I think a lot of readers end up having their own interpretation of how to use them in readings (I did anyway).

There is a load about elemental dignities in Wang's book on the GD tarot

Also, if you look at the cross on the card back, and now see how each arm of the cross has a colour?
Each colour is an element.
Each element is a suit.

Suits that are opposite each other on the cross are enemies.
The ones on either side are ok.

That is the basis of elemental dignities.

elvenstar said:

Welcome to AT Dave, nice to see more Scotland here

About elemental dignities, I think 'the' book most people refer to is Book T by Mathers, which you can find online. I found the site Lillie recommended useful too.

The rules are very simple to understand in principle, not necessarily that simple to use in practice. I think a lot of readers end up having their own interpretation of how to use them in readings (I did anyway).

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Thanks, good to be here.

I did find one website which explained the interaction of the elements but he/she used analogies from the natural world which just ended up confusing me. Also, Im not even sure when elemental dignities can be used. I can't understand how they could be used in a spread like the Celtic Cross for example.

It would be hard with the CC.

In your LWB do you have the fifteen card spread?

That has 5 sets of three cards and is good for ED's.

Oh yeah, Hello from Wales!!!

From Book T

A CARD is strong or weak, well dignified or ill dignified, according to the cards next to it on either side.
Cards of the same suit on either side strengthen it greatly, for good or evil according to their nature.
Cards of opposite natures on either side weaken it greatly, for either good or evil.
Swords are inimical to Pentacles.
Wands are inimical to Cups.
Swords are friendly with Cups and Wands.
Wands are friendly with Swords and Pentacles.
If a card fall between two other which are mutually contrary, it is not much affected by either.

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I agree that nature examples collapse easily and are not necessarily helpful when faced with an actual reading. Take your own notions of the elements and mix knowledge with intuition to make it work.

Basically they can be used all the time, any time a card is next ( or above or ...) to another. Neighbouring cards influence each other. I don't use the Celtic cross myself, but I don't see why it wouldn't work there. If say the central card is fire and the crossing one fire, they would strengthen each other, making the whole thing a lot more intense than if it was fire and earth for example. If it was fire crossed by water, perhaps the water would put the fire out making the energy of that card ineffectual. Just an example of how you could read with them, but the CC is probably not the best to start using them with.