Abrac
This is an interesting topic. It is a fundamental principle which can easily be taken for granted, but there are those who may not be familiar with the Planets. Planet symbolism is everywhere in the Tarot.
The Seven Planets
Always Wondering
Scion said:
This is what I was wondering.
Scion said:
Perfect, and smplifies things too.
AW
franniee
elvenstar said:
No, He is a traditionalist and is abiding by ancient astrology that began with with the egyptians, babylonians and greeks etc. And all they noticed were the 7 personal planets - 5 actual planets and the sun and moon which we know know are not planets.
The modern planets weren't found until centuries after and weren't incorporated into modern astrology until fairly recently. So when astrologers incorporated the modern planets they doubled up.
So like Uranus is co-ruler of the 11th house with Saturn. Neptune is the co ruler of the 12th house with jupiter. Neptune is currently the ruler of Pisces but prior to finding neptune that distinction was held by jupiter. Pluto is now considered the ruler of Scorpio. Pluto is also considered to be co -ruler of the 8th house with mars..... so if you notice they doubled up on the rulings.... they were already covered but they doubled on them none the less. They also added a few astreriods - pallas vesta and chiron.
does that help?
Scion
A great question, Elevenstar! And Franniee's right, I am a traditionalist in a lot of senses... mainly I believe that you shouldn't discard a solid system until you understand how it works as a whole. This directly contradicts most esoteric writing nowadays which argues that if you don't understand something then obviously it's too hard and you should just make it up and fudge everything based on what feels good to you.elvenstar said:
This is what I like to call Gnosis-in-a-can! *shudder* Reasons can be found for anything. But when people use the "outer" planets they are not using traditional astrology. Saturn was not named Saturn arbitrarily by a scientist looking through a telescope. Ditto Mars, Ditto Mercury, etc. Saturn represents the limit, the Lord of Time, the old slow Wanderer at the edge of the known... it's all well and good that there's another celestial body out there past it, but frankly that doesn't create an artificial gap into which we can wedge it in a system that worked for several thousand years. Frankly, the Sun isn't literally a planet either, so where do you draw the line? The Golden Dawn also didn't know about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle but that doesn't mean that I need to graft it into their magickal structure. Whether you want to argue that the outer planets are too far away to effect anything, or that Saturn forms a perfect heptameron and an 8th unbalances the system, or that the 7 "wanderers" are more poetic forces than literal physical bodies... bottom line: Neptune and Uranus, and even funky little Pluto aren't part of the Golden Dawn Book T deal at all.
Actually I know several traditional astrologers that incorporate outer planets to good effect, but in general their use seems unnecessary; for magic that is based on Hermetic material they are weird post-materialist appendages that illumine nothing and complicate much. It's not that there's no reason to use the outers, but rather that there are many very good reasons for NOT using them. Again, just opinion. And every astrologer will speak differently.
This is only one view of course, but many folks think that Astrology has devolved into a sorry state under the New Age aegis... a criticism which is gaining traction and adherents. For those who haven't looked at the history, in 1895 astrologer Alan Leo decided that Astrology was too complicated for the punters and in a bizarre fit of benevolent vandalism decided to lobotomize and mutilate it categorically...
On the one hand he did repopularize the fallen "Queen of the Sciences" but on the other he gutted and stuffed her for easy access so that very little was left that resembled her original untaxidermied state. Important to note in his worldview is a famous court case where he was forced to defend himself against charges of fortune-telling, and in so doing reimagined Astrology as a kind of bland character analysis for "moderns on the go." Why bother with prediction when all people really want is flattery?Leo consciously chose to discard all the things he didn't understand in favor of a soothing self-congratulatory unlicensed pseudo-therapy... In the process, he removed most of the spiritual and philosophical components (too complex and legally tricky) in favor of generic platitudes and compliments. The benefit in Leo's version of Astrology was that people love to talk about themselves and that nothing could ever be called wrong because (unlike traditional predictive astrology) it doesn't actually provide much in the way of hard facts. When modern scientists ridicule Astrology, they are ridiculing the husk of something that was willfully amputated and eviscerated to "jazz it up" for people who couldn't be bothered to learn the basics. In fact, Leo's dingdong astrology attracted scorn from fellow Theosophists at the time; Charles Carter characterized Leo's Esoteric Astrology as "a big volume containing virtually nothing worth reading." Theosophy and spiritualism had sparked interest in occult subjects, but Leo's version was the going concern... And it's easy to see why.
See, most people have NO idea what sign was in the Ascendant at the moment of their birth, but EVERYONE knows the date of their birth... so suddenly the Sun sign became the central concern (after centuries of focus on the Asc).... and naturally the importance of the planets dwindled. It was just too hard to keep track of all that pesky math... so this new breed of astrologers lumped it and dumped it. Sun sign uber alles. Then, Naylor's birthchart for Princess Margaret in 1930 was the nail in the coffin... as newspaper sunsign fever took hold and everyon was told that "astrology equalled the Zodiac" (which is a bit like taking a random photo of any part of your body and using that to represent you on your driver's license). By the midcentury, Marc Edmond Jones had invented the Sabean symbols with literally NO knowledge of ancient languages and Dane Rudhyar had tunnelled even more exlicitly into therapeutic territory.
Amazingly, though the technology for rapid planetary calculations is now available on any PDA or cellphone, Leo's version of astrology has spent a century spreading with the infectious appeal typical of anything designed for mass consumption and minimal understanding. (Actually I have a hunch that this available tech is one of the spurs of the modern traditionalist revival.) If you go down to your local bookshop, 85% of the titles shelved under astrology regurgitate a mutation (or even a further simplification) of Leo's ideas, as if humanity came in 12 basic flavors like Cheez Whiz. The sad truth is that most New Age books on astrology cannibalize each other and essentially ALL of them sip straight from the Alan Leo font of back-patting pap. Again, only my opinion... but people should know that the Golden Dawn had nothing to do with this truncated Theosophical mishmosh.
Ack. That was probably a little crazed, and more than anyone wanted to know, but I thought it was an important thing to state at the outset.
Most importantly, the astrology that is used in Book T does NOT incorporate Leo's wholesale butchery... It's important to distinguish so that people don't conflate and confuse the two. The Golden Dawn's perfectable humanism is very easy to smudge into Leo's vague, affirmational vox-pop-gruel... so they get sloshed together often. This is really a topic for a separate thread, but the point stands. It's going to come up in this Golden Dawn subforum a LOT.
You watch.The Golden Dawn used only 7 planets for a reason.... and that reason was that for them and for all there sources the literal seven planets, and the metaphysical forces they represented were bound up in each other and formed a coherent whole.
Anyways, just wanted to explain my thinking...
Scion
Grigori
elvenstar said:
Saturns place as the "last" of the planets is a big part of its meanings. Saturn represents barriers, restrictions, solidification. Its the "last" planet, because it literally means "the edge". Its like the boundary or fence of the solar system, it holds everything else inside.
This is reflected also in the meanings given the modern planets, Uranus (previoulsy known as Herschel, after the discoverer), Neptune and Pluto have meanings that are about breaking out of restrictions (Saturn) or moving beyond them. Beyond (moving past) boundaries (Saturn). Each does it in a different way. Firey Pluto blasts barriers (Saturn) away, watery Neptune dissolves barriers (Saturn), airey Neptune is radically outside the barriers (Saturn).
I also really like Frawley's treatment of the modern planets. He doesn't discount them completely, but considers them quite minor features of the chart, rarely applicable and only when in a very precise position (e.g. if exactly conjunct another significant planet). And he asserts that usually the same information can be found elsewhere in the chart anyway, so they are confirmations of something that is already visable.
I think a reasonable argument can be made for including the 3 modern planets in the Majors, on the Elemental cards Fool (Air, Uranus), Hanged Man (Water, Neptune) and Judgement (Fire, Pluto). But its a bit superfluous and since these planets don't show up anywhere else in the deck, there's not much benefit to including them (in my current opinion at least
)Rachelcat there is a great diagram in the Book of Thoth that deals with what you've posted about the days of the week (from memory at least). I'll scan and post it tonight. So much boils down to these 7 planets, its really worthwhile getting familar with them I think.
Grigori
Don't hold back Scion, tell us what you really think
Here's that scan from Crowley's Book of Thoth. A nifty little discovery and something that will be useful as we get more into the planets.
It's a little amusing that Sun-sign astrology was introduced my a man named "Leo"
Here's that scan from Crowley's Book of Thoth. A nifty little discovery and something that will be useful as we get more into the planets.
It's a little amusing that Sun-sign astrology was introduced my a man named "Leo"
Attachments
sapienza
Great topic Scion
I love the way the planetary names for the days of the week follow the order of the path of the seven pointed star when they are placed around the points in order of speed of movement. Just love it! Here are a few other images.
I love the way the planetary names for the days of the week follow the order of the path of the seven pointed star when they are placed around the points in order of speed of movement. Just love it! Here are a few other images.
kwaw
similia said:
sapienza said:
And it is the relationship between the planetary order/hours and the days of the week that accounts for the fact that:
The first decans of each sign follow in the order of the days of the week starting with Aries/Mars - Tuesday
The second decans of each sign follow in the order of the days of the week starting with Aries/Sun - Sunday
The third decans of each sign follow in the order of the days of the week starting with Aries/Venus - Friday
If you forget what rules the first 3 decans of aries, aries signifies the head, pat your head and remember the Martians Penis:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1438976&postcount=38
Grigori
Awesome, thanks Kwaw! I'd not made that connection at all. I've been counting the order around the outside of the circle, working my wy through the entire zodiac each time.
kwaw
kwaw said:
If, instead of connecting every third planet to form a septagram as that which produces the days of the week:
http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=27758
you form a septagram connecting every second planet round the circle, then:
If we start with Mars, as being ruler of the first decan, we get the planetary order:
Mars
Venus
Moon
Jupiter
Sun
Mercury
Saturn
List in the same order, the seven traditional metals associated with the seven traditional planets:
Mars rules Iron
Venus ~ Copper
Moon ~ Silver
Jupiter ~ Tin
Sun ~ Gold
Mercury ~ Mercury
Saturn ~ Lead
And you get the metals in the order of their atomic weight, from lowest to highest.
