The Seven Planets

Teheuti said:

I remember someone from the Astrological Lodge making some astounding long-term weather predictions contradicting everything the officials were saying that were actually incredibly accurate.

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That's awesome! Actually, weather prediction is one of the quickest ways to convince skeptics... Amazing what hardcore horary folks can produce as well. It relly walks a fine line between divination and magick. I love the practicality of some of the older material... farmers who would literally starve or thrive depending on the astrologer's accuracy. Gives one pause.

Scion said:

For me, the question comes down to worldview. This thread in fact was begun because of this basic fact: the worldview of astrology, of the Golden Dawn in fact, was fundamentally different from ours.

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Most members of the Golden Dawn never became very knowledgeable astrologers. Helen Rand (Vigilate) was considered the main Golden Dawn astrologer. When people felt they had hounded Mathers too much with their astrological questions, they went to her (for several years she lived with Waite as his housekeeper/lover and scryer). Yeats took his astrological chart to a professional reader - even when he was following his transits and progressions rather closely. Florence Farr's astrological notes on her own chart and transits are rather basic.

Supposedly Mathers paid close attention to the astrological hours for doing magical work, but most of the others relied on simple charts for their own needs. While Mathers delved into some of the old systems he never seemed to work out a really coherent way of passing on this information to others.

Similarly, when GD members did tarot readings they rarely went beyond the first fan of the "Opening of the Key." And their interpretations focused on a few keywords for each card.

BTW, I'm curious what serious professional-level astrological author in the past 50 years proposes that zodiac signs are more important than planets? I really don't know who you are referring to but I would like to know.

I'm somewhat of a dabbler, and when I look back at books like Linda Goodman's Sun Signs I see exactly what you're saying. But I don't agree with lumping all modern astrologers into this mindset.

I'm all for learning more about traditional astrology -- which is something I'd never given much thought to until recently.

But any complex journey is, for most of us, best taken in steps. I started my interest in astrology with sun signs. If that's what brings others into it, then I'm not prepared to throw it out entirely, though I would love to see the common misconception that it's the end all and be all of astrology go away.

I just wonder if it isn't possible to discuss traditional astrology without throwing out everything else in one fell swoop.

Anyway, I'm getting a lot out of this thread. Especially the links you provided, Scion. Thanks.

I see the return of Sun Sign Astrology as a positive - a shedding of the absurd, so to speak.

The whole of nature moves to the rhythm of the seasonal cycle. Nothing effects life more than this. It is real, and self evident. The cause of the seasons is found within the placement of the the World in the sky and its movement around the Sun. The Moon gives us a 12-fold division (more or less) of this yearly journey.

For myself, it seems far more reasonable that these very real cycles, that effect life all around us, would have influence on our character and destiny rather than some made-up divisions of the sky, the position of the planet Saturn, or where Spica was at the moment of ones birth.

These seasonal forces, which miraculously dictate to the flower when to bloom, to the tree when to shed it's leaves, to the birds when to migrate, to the bear when to nap, surely must touch us in some way as well. I would go so far as to say "Sun Sign Astrology" is far more profound than "Traditional Astrology", but not for the reasons astrologers assume. I imagine the massive popularity of Sun Sign Astrology is due to our instinctive connection to this natural cycle.

Any teaching which ignores the obvious in nature, in favor for the distant and obscure, is, in my opinion, false.

HELLO Mel

Mel: Any teaching which ignores the obvious in nature, in favor for the distant and obscure, is, in my opinion, false.

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For rhythms of life on a physical individual basis, I favour an observance of the Seasonal cycle of the location a person is in because it's very relative to that person/place. On such a relative scale, the zodiac segment of that time & place might just as well be ignored. Sun and moon observations and perhaps bright stars, would be probably sufficient, IF one wanted to observe them.

(I once did a (small) study on people and places. I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in the UK resident families/people of certain areas can definately be seen to have 'character traits' that correlate with the climate & weather patterns of the region. Just like the flora....)

But on a broader scale, given Earths' position in relation to the Sun and solar system planets (and deep sky), the invisible non-existent zodiac is a convenient framework within which to make further observances. And such observances & research across the centuries has proved (to me) that it has a measure of validity, wherever a person may reside on this planet.

Of course there are 'glitches', remember that the zodiac is primarily geared to the northern hemisphere, it's sign associations and attributes arn't seasonally compatible with southern hemisphere folk. Perhaps a Southern person might post here ...?

Overall, we cannot disregard local seasons, nor the fact that we're all on a chunk of matter that circles a firey star, and the whole kit & caboodle is hurtling through space.

So personally I'm not in favour of ditching anything - but neither do I think that there should there be an over-emphasis on any one specific factor.

Bee

Bernice said:

Of course there are 'glitches', remember that the zodiac is primarily geared to the northern hemisphere, it's sign associations and attributes arn't seasonally compatible with southern hemisphere folk. Perhaps a Southern person might post here ...?

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Hi Bee. I'll preface what I'm about to say by clarifying that I'm absolutely no expert. I've done quite a bit of astrology study but still feel very much in the 'absolute novice' category. I'm finding this thread fascinating.

It's interesting that you mention the southern hemisphere 'issues'. I've thought a lot about this. I've read a variety of discussions where people suggest reversing the signs in the southern hemisphere but generally that just isn't done, and I'm not suggesting it should be. I've also played around with the GD attributes of the quadrants/seasons to the Princesses and come up with my own southern hemisphere version, but it's one of those things you know just isn't right and is never going to work properly. The attributes of the signs are obviously linked to northern hemisphere seasons and so over this side of the planet it always feels to me like I'm working with a 'foreign' system. Not sure there is any answer to the issue though. Maybe I need to look at the big picture rather than worrying about the details. I wonder if traditional astrology, with it's focus on the planets and houses, rather than the signs, might help? I guess that is what I'm hoping to explore.

I'd love to hear any other thoughts on this.

Another forever-student-of-astrology.

Hello sapienza,

I'm pleased you've posted. I can understand your feelings (and experience!) of having to adapt to a 'foreign' astrology model. I'm guessing that it just doesn't feel right!. Heck, even when water goes down the plughole, it swirls the the opposite way around........

Your idea of focussing on just the planets and houses might be a workable solution, but even the houses arn't 'real' as such. Are they valid for you over there at the south pole, or do you have to tweak your interpretations?

In the end it's only the Planets that are actually 'there'. Maybe someone in the southern hemisphere could create a more suitable model? Like you, I'm not sure that 'reversing' the signs would be a clear-cut answer. Unless.... you keep the signs but change their associations & attributes - even switch their planetry rulers around. Might be distracting and confusing at first, but I wonder if anyone has given it a go?

Fancy studying all the Thoth astro-correspondances when they probably don't even apply to your Living Experiences! It's daft.

Bee

The houses are different over here I guess. Despite learning to manually calculate a chart, I have to admit I do just use the computer now and have quite forgotten the exact calculations. But if you looked at my chart at the time I was born in Brisbane and then someone born at exactly the same time in London, the planets would be in all the same signs, with the same aspects, but would be in different houses, kind of almost like the chart was upside down, but not quite. So I guess the houses are adapted well enough in that way.

I know there are a few web-sites where people in the Southern Hemisphere have put forward ideas/solutions/theories. I do remember one of them explaining how the signs related to the energies of the southern hemisphere seasons, but it all felt a bit of a stretch for me.

Bernice said:

Fancy studying all the Thoth astro-correspondances when they probably don't even apply to your Living Experiences! It's daft.

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I guess this is why I so regulary give up and just abandon it all! It can get really frustrating at times. It's a great system, but just doesn't fit down here. Perhaps I'm just missing something. I know there are a few other Aussies who post here so I'd be keen to hear their thougths too. I'm just coming back to the Golden Dawn decks and I know all these frustrations are going to rear their head again. Maybe this time I'll work out a way to make sense of it

sapienza said:

The houses are different over here I guess. Despite learning to manually calculate a chart, I have to admit I do just use the computer now and have quite forgotten the exact calculations. But if you looked at my chart at the time I was born in Brisbane and then someone born at exactly the same time in London, the planets would be in all the same signs, with the same aspects, but would be in different houses, kind of almost like the chart was upside down, but not quite. So I guess the houses are adapted well enough in that way.

I know there are a few web-sites where people in the Southern Hemisphere have put forward ideas/solutions/theories. I do remember one of them explaining how the signs related to the energies of the southern hemisphere seasons, but it all felt a bit of a stretch for me.


I guess this is why I so regulary give up and just abandon it all! It can get really frustrating at times. It's a great system, but just doesn't fit down here. Perhaps I'm just missing something. I know there are a few other Aussies who post here so I'd be keen to hear their thougths too. I'm just coming back to the Golden Dawn decks and I know all these frustrations are going to rear their head again. Maybe this time I'll work out a way to make sense of it

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Had another thought. If the southern hemisphere wants to keep to a 12-fold model, why not use your own archetypes for a zodiac, ones that match the attributes/associations of your seasons (gods-ancestors-whatever)?

I.E: How do you all experience the entry of the Sun into the cardinal points, Aries, Libra etc..., and then what archetypes (can't think of another term for a deity/whatever with a 'flavour') would be the best fit.

I've bolded part of your post re. re those who explain the sign energies for the southern pole areas. You say it's stretching things...... I'm thinking that if it cannot be neatly adapted to the north pole energies, it's probably no good as a workable system/model in the long run.

Bee

Another thought..... in order to actually 'use' the Thoth/GD, it would mean having to first create a SH (southern hemisphere) astro-model. Then read all the thoth stuff and extract the Principals only (a monumental task...or not?). THEN apply it to your zodiac/decans etc.

Bee..... still thinking.