Fulgour
Can we have it both ways? The letter either doeswizzle said:
or doesn't answer this question. I say NO sell out.
"I've just finished a big job for very little cash!"
or doesn't answer this question. I say NO sell out.
Lillie
You know...
In my ignorance I thought it was all so simple.
I thought that he wrote the book for her deck, and she drew the deck for his book.
Sort of joint effort?
Though I do like her cards much more than I like his book.
Which I don't really like at all.
I agree with Waite on one point.
He says her cards are beautiful. And I agree with him there.
Although I bet he never fancied the Magician, and when I was 20 I thought he was a very beautiful young man! (the magician, not Waite)
In my ignorance I thought it was all so simple.
I thought that he wrote the book for her deck, and she drew the deck for his book.
Sort of joint effort?
Though I do like her cards much more than I like his book.
Which I don't really like at all.
I agree with Waite on one point.
He says her cards are beautiful. And I agree with him there.
Although I bet he never fancied the Magician, and when I was 20 I thought he was a very beautiful young man! (the magician, not Waite)
Fulgour
Artful Dodger Waite
This is the first texual mention by Waite of Pamela Colman Smith,
all the way into the book on page 67. He begins nicely enough...
but as he slowly works to his conclusion, carefully setting things
up for his final move ~ we see at last that he steals Pam's credit
for everything she has accomplished by pretending to defend her.
_______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______
Pictorial Key to the Tarot: Part II:
The Doctrine Behind the Veil:
Section 1: The Tarot and Secret Tradition
The Tarot cards which are issued with the small edition of the present work, that is to say, with the Key to the Tarot, have been drawn and coloured by Miss Pamela Colman Smith, and will, I think, be regarded as very striking and beautiful, in their design alike and execution. They are reproduced in the present enlarged edition of the Key as a means of reference to the text. [PKT published 1911, 2 years after printing of the Tarot cards.]
They differ in many important respects from the conventional archaisms of the past and from the wretched products of colportage which now reach us from Italy, and it remains for me to justify their variations so far as the symbolism is concerned.
That for once in modern times I present a pack which is the work of an artist does not, I presume, call for apology, even to the people--if any remain among us--who used to be described and to call themselves "very occult." If any one will look at the gorgeous Tarot valet or knave who is emblazoned on one of the page plates of Chatto's Facts and Speculations concerning the History of Playing Cards, he will know that Italy in the old days produced some splendid packs.
I could only wish that it had been possible to issue the restored and rectified cards in the same style and size; such a course would have done fuller justice to the designs, but the result would have proved unmanageable for those practical purposes which are connected with cards, and for which allowance must be made, whatever my views thereon. For the variations in the symbolism by which the designs have been affected, I alone am responsible.
[Fulgour's Note: With "I alone am responsible" he does not stand guard
against any criticsm of the artist, but steals credit for the whole deck.]
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pkt0201.htm
This is the first texual mention by Waite of Pamela Colman Smith,
all the way into the book on page 67. He begins nicely enough...
but as he slowly works to his conclusion, carefully setting things
up for his final move ~ we see at last that he steals Pam's credit
for everything she has accomplished by pretending to defend her.
_______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______
Pictorial Key to the Tarot: Part II:
The Doctrine Behind the Veil:
Section 1: The Tarot and Secret Tradition
The Tarot cards which are issued with the small edition of the present work, that is to say, with the Key to the Tarot, have been drawn and coloured by Miss Pamela Colman Smith, and will, I think, be regarded as very striking and beautiful, in their design alike and execution. They are reproduced in the present enlarged edition of the Key as a means of reference to the text. [PKT published 1911, 2 years after printing of the Tarot cards.]
They differ in many important respects from the conventional archaisms of the past and from the wretched products of colportage which now reach us from Italy, and it remains for me to justify their variations so far as the symbolism is concerned.
That for once in modern times I present a pack which is the work of an artist does not, I presume, call for apology, even to the people--if any remain among us--who used to be described and to call themselves "very occult." If any one will look at the gorgeous Tarot valet or knave who is emblazoned on one of the page plates of Chatto's Facts and Speculations concerning the History of Playing Cards, he will know that Italy in the old days produced some splendid packs.
I could only wish that it had been possible to issue the restored and rectified cards in the same style and size; such a course would have done fuller justice to the designs, but the result would have proved unmanageable for those practical purposes which are connected with cards, and for which allowance must be made, whatever my views thereon. For the variations in the symbolism by which the designs have been affected, I alone am responsible.
[Fulgour's Note: With "I alone am responsible" he does not stand guard
against any criticsm of the artist, but steals credit for the whole deck.]
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pkt0201.htm
Fulgour
The copyright owner is J. D. Semken, the surviving executor of W. R. Semken who died in July 1970. He was one of two ultimate residuary legatees under the will of Arthur Edward Waite, who died on 19 May 1942. After the death on 15 September 1980 of Miss A. S. M. Waite, the tenant for life, the Public Trustee, in winding up the Waite estate, assigned to W.R. Semken and J. D. Semken "all the copyright and rights in the nature of copyright in the works of Arthur Edward Waite comprised in his estate".Fulgour said:
http://www.sacred-textscom/tarot/faq.htm
©T.O.S.H., Inc.
Lillie
Well, you know, in the end I bet there are loads of people using her cards, and loads of copies of his book abandoned on shelves, the covers getting as dusty as the contents.
It's good she is getting more credit now. She drew the cards.
And although we will probably never know exactly what went on between them...
even if he did tell her exactly what to draw (and I'm not saying he did, just if he did) then she is still responsible for the cards. Cos he could have given the same instructions to another artist and got completely different cards.
So, the cards are hers. They can't not be. And whoever got the copyright in the end, whatever Waite said about her work in his book (and he did praise her, but in a rather slighting way), she drew them.
And she deserves the credit for them.
Cos it's the cards that make the deck, isn't it?
Her art that has appealed to people for the last 100 years.
Until I came to AT I had heard of, and occassionally seen, the 'Rider Waite' deck.
I had no idea who drew them.
Now I do, and I'm glad I do.
And she does deserve credit for her work.
So, good on you, Fulgour.
Carry on singing Pixies praise. She deserves it!
It's good she is getting more credit now. She drew the cards.
And although we will probably never know exactly what went on between them...
even if he did tell her exactly what to draw (and I'm not saying he did, just if he did) then she is still responsible for the cards. Cos he could have given the same instructions to another artist and got completely different cards.
So, the cards are hers. They can't not be. And whoever got the copyright in the end, whatever Waite said about her work in his book (and he did praise her, but in a rather slighting way), she drew them.
And she deserves the credit for them.
Cos it's the cards that make the deck, isn't it?
Her art that has appealed to people for the last 100 years.
Until I came to AT I had heard of, and occassionally seen, the 'Rider Waite' deck.
I had no idea who drew them.
Now I do, and I'm glad I do.
And she does deserve credit for her work.
So, good on you, Fulgour.
Carry on singing Pixies praise. She deserves it!
Emily
I think Waite just wanted her to be 'the artist' he used to illustrate his deck. He could have used anyone but by luck and good fortune he used Pixie Smith - she didn't get the full recognition at the time but its obvious she poured heart and soul into those cards. These days deck illustrators get equal recognition for decks but that was not to be in the early days of the Rider Waite deck.
The RWS is popular, but not many people have read Waite's book - I couldn't work my way through it and I think there are much better books to be found on the RWS.
The RWS is popular, but not many people have read Waite's book - I couldn't work my way through it and I think there are much better books to be found on the RWS.
Lee
Actually this isn't necessarily true, on this page from Holly Voley's site:Emily said:
http://home.comcast.net/~vilex/Adverts.html
You can see a 1920 advertisement for the cards which gives Smith full credit for the cards.
-- Lee
wizzle
After giving mature consideration to the infamous Pixie letter, I'm not sure I see where she mentioned her mentor at all. Might it not have been Crowley? Or some other Golden Dawn personality making her slave away using Book T.
We only have Waite's dubious words that it was HIS deck she was working on.
What do you think?
We only have Waite's dubious words that it was HIS deck she was working on.
What do you think?
Cerulean
Would Crowley have been interested in her old fashioned art?
This is a broad sweep of Crowley's life...
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/aleister-crowley/
....
Crowley may have wanted to write poetry like Yeats, but from what've I read, W. B. Yeats did not like Crowley at all and Pamela Colman Smith (PCS) was a friend of his brother, Jack Yeats and Mrs. J. Yeats...
From Holly Voley's timeline of PCS:
1904-(26), etc..;
* follows Waite to the Independent and Rectified Rite of the Golden Dawn (or Holy Order of the Golden Dawn)
* designed set for WB Yeats' play Where There is Nothing with Edith Craig for the Stage Society
...
* January 1910 issue of Occult Review has an article by Waite on Tarot with line drawings by PCS (issue probably came out in late November or early December of 1909)
...
# 1911-(33) converted to Catholicism;
* Lair of the White Worm published
* The Pioneer Players (with Edith Craig) founded
* Pictorial Key to the Tarot published (line art from deck is now included)
....1913-(35) Russian Ballet published
* Lily Yeats stays with Pixie in London
...in one of the biography bits--perhaps Melinda Boyd Parson (?), there's a mention that PCS did not go to Italy one summer, but went with Jack Yeats and his wife to a seaside cottage to spend the season with them...
So perhaps with just these associated facts, I'm not certain Crowley would have thought to consider PCS artwork, given she was a devoted Catholic and friend of the Yeats family?
Cerulean
P.S. Would you like me to look up the references to her Catholicism and mentions of Yeats family and her? There's a reference that when WB Yeats first met her, he mentioned her in a letter to his father and that likely was one of the first associated references...and in one her publishing ventures, I believe works of one of the Yeats brothers might have been included...
This is a broad sweep of Crowley's life...
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/aleister-crowley/
....
Crowley may have wanted to write poetry like Yeats, but from what've I read, W. B. Yeats did not like Crowley at all and Pamela Colman Smith (PCS) was a friend of his brother, Jack Yeats and Mrs. J. Yeats...
From Holly Voley's timeline of PCS:
1904-(26), etc..;
* follows Waite to the Independent and Rectified Rite of the Golden Dawn (or Holy Order of the Golden Dawn)
* designed set for WB Yeats' play Where There is Nothing with Edith Craig for the Stage Society
...
* January 1910 issue of Occult Review has an article by Waite on Tarot with line drawings by PCS (issue probably came out in late November or early December of 1909)
...
# 1911-(33) converted to Catholicism;
* Lair of the White Worm published
* The Pioneer Players (with Edith Craig) founded
* Pictorial Key to the Tarot published (line art from deck is now included)
....1913-(35) Russian Ballet published
* Lily Yeats stays with Pixie in London
...in one of the biography bits--perhaps Melinda Boyd Parson (?), there's a mention that PCS did not go to Italy one summer, but went with Jack Yeats and his wife to a seaside cottage to spend the season with them...
So perhaps with just these associated facts, I'm not certain Crowley would have thought to consider PCS artwork, given she was a devoted Catholic and friend of the Yeats family?
Cerulean
P.S. Would you like me to look up the references to her Catholicism and mentions of Yeats family and her? There's a reference that when WB Yeats first met her, he mentioned her in a letter to his father and that likely was one of the first associated references...and in one her publishing ventures, I believe works of one of the Yeats brothers might have been included...
Fulgour
History!
and it may be that we have got one! According to a copyrighted
text published in Chicago in 1918 our hero is ~ L.W. de Laurence.
I have a friend who is constantly on the lookout for conspiracies,wizzle said:
and it may be that we have got one! According to a copyrighted
text published in Chicago in 1918 our hero is ~ L.W. de Laurence.
