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ravenest 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eruditus
By the way, can anyone recommend good books on the Qabala?
Not being rude or anything, but at the moment I am enjoying, 'Kabbalah for Dummies' by Arthur Kurzweil, but thats trad. Kabbalah.



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Old 14-01-2008 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #31
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Those "Dummies" books are actually not bad, for their purpose. My first Tarot book was a "Dummies" book, and it provided a pleasant introduction.

It takes humility to study one of those books. It takes humility to learn. Period.

How did that old slogan go? "You can learn a lot from a dummy." Truer words, truer words....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eruditus
Either way, I believe the contradictions or errors are intentional. Whether or not they're put there to enlighten or befuddle, I still don't know. Then again, on further thought, I suppose they could be mistakes. After all, these guys are still humans.
It's worth bearing in mind how very reticent Crowley was to revealing the Star / Emperor switch. Despite knowing the attribution for at least a quarter of a century he chose not to print it until near the end of his life. Even then he may have been in two minds about it.

A good example of Crowley's attitude can be found in a footnote in chapter 4 of Magick in Theory and Practice. In the main text he discusses the formula of ALHIM while using the old Emperor - Heh correspndence. The footnote reads:
Quote:
The letter He is the formula of Nuith, which makes possible the process described in the previous notes. But it is not permissible here to explain fully the exact matter or manner of this adjustment. I have preferred the exoteric attributions, which are sufficiently informative for the beginner.
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Old 14-01-2008 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #33
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What an interesting man. A fascinating enigma. I'm a new devotee of Mr. Crowley, but I can't wait to read all of his books.

Isn't it ironic, how conventional religions make most of their "secrets" available to their Adepts, and yet those conventional religions can be dull, false, and unsatisfying...and yet the "religions" or belief systems that really do work, consistently and with scientific fidelity of replication, make their "secrets" something that the Adept must dig up and earn? Isn't that revealing?

There isn't much esotericism in Christianity and Islam. Sure, those religions have their mystics, but for the most part all of the important doctrines are readily available to even the stupidest devotee. And yet both of these religions are inefficient and destructive.

For me, Mr. Crowley's reticence and the whole atmosphere of guardedness, plus the headiness and sheer difficulty of this art and science, confirm my belief in the existence of the super- or meta- or preternatural in a way that the conventional religions could never hope to achieve.
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Hi there
I am fairley new to the thoth tarot, but have studied tarot as a subject for some time.
I just wondered if the reason for the emperor tzaddi - star - heh switch could be indicative of the new aeon. After all Aliester Crowley changed certain traditional names of tarot cards to fit in with the new aeon.

my reasoning for this is that the path itself from chochmah to tiphareth wisdom to beauty could indicate the current belief systems ie the last aeon the aeon of osiris had a big daddy religion as in the christian church where people worshiped a male god (the emperor - the ruler - the lord),

The new aeon the aeon of horus (freedom,new understanding, the new hope,the new light - all attributes of the star card) becomes the new belief system.

ie the new wisdom the new beauty

and this could be why some authors of the tarot still refer to old tree of life system which was based in the previous aeon where the emperor was heh and the star tzaddi.

Alot of Crowleys work was based around the coming of the new aeon so a major change like this could indicate the coming of the new aeon (thats the one we are in now - the aeon of Horus)

As the first thing Crowley said was that tzaddi is not the star - this could mean that he already knew that the star card represented the new aeon.

Even though there is already an aeon card in the thoth tarot, which indicates rebirth, the coming of the new aeon etc - the true nature of the aeon is maybe represented in the star card ie what type of belief systems will replace the old big daddy religion.

Just a thought

blessings

crystal dawn



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Last edited by crystal dawn; 22-05-2008 at 21:11.
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Old 22-05-2008 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crystal dawn
I just wondered if the reason for the emperor tzaddi - star - heh switch could be indicative of the new aeon.
It most certainly could be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crystal dawn
As the first thing Crowley said was that tzaddi is not the star - this could mean that he already knew that the star card represented the new aeon.
I can agree with that in a certain sense. I will add that Crowley did not consciously know it until several years after the reception of Liber AL. His diaries show evidence of experimentation with both the old and the new attribution. After a period of time he became increasingly convinced and confident in the new attribution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crystal dawn
Even though there is already an aeon card in the thoth tarot, which indicates rebirth, the coming of the new aeon etc - the true nature of the aeon is maybe represented in the star card ie what type of belief systems will replace the old big daddy religion.
Or maybe even non-belief systems. Who knows? The Star representing Nuit is symbolic of infinite possiblities. Instead of the "one size fits all" approach of conventional religion, the new Stellar consciousness, while identical in source, is unique in expression.

The Emperor, who was symbolic of the old Sun-God and exterior worship, is moved down to the 28th path. Instead of worshiping an external father figure, divinity is recognised as being within instead of above. Consequently the repositioning of the Emperor lower down on the Tree of Life may be symbolic of the Kingly qualities of that card becoming part of the evolution of human consciousness in the New Aeon.

Every man and every woman is a star.



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Last edited by Aeon418; 23-05-2008 at 06:31.
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My main stumbling block with the whole Heh - Tzaddi swap is the explanation of how it becomes evident when you place it on the path of the Zodiac with the 2 twists on it. I may be missing something, so if I am please enlighten me.

The 3 correspondences used to explain it this way are:
1) Latin Number Correspondence
2) Astrological Correspondence
3) Hebrew Correspondence

He ties the swap of Emperor and Star in with his switch (rectification) of Adjustment and Lust. The problems I have are these:

- All 4 cards maintain their astrological correspondences.
- The Latin numbers are swapped on Adjustment and Lust, but the Hebrew letters are left attached to the original card.
- Emperor and Star have their Hebrew letters swapped, but their Latin numbers are unchanged.

No matter how you lay out the cards (in a circle by Astrological, Hebrew, or Latin Correspondence), if you draw the line representing the zodiac through the pattern, you never end up with a double twist.

I guess I just don't get it. Any answers?

Last edited by Lore347; 23-06-2008 at 05:09.
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Ross G Caldwell 
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Hi Lore,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lore347
My main stumbling block with the whole Heh - Tzaddi swap is the explanation of how it becomes evident when you place it on the path of the Zodiac with the 2 twists on it. I may be missing something, so if I am please enlighten me.

The 3 correspondences used to explain it this way are:
1) Latin Number Correspondence
2) Astrological Correspondence
3) Hebrew Correspondence

He ties the swap of Emperor and Star in with his switch (rectification) of Adjustment and Lust. The problems I have are these:

- All 4 cards maintain their astrological correspondences.
- The Latin numbers are swapped on Adjustment and Lust, but the Hebrew letters are left attached to the original card.
- Emperor and Star have their Hebrew letters swapped, but their Latin numbers are unchanged.

No matter how you lay out the cards (in a circle by Astrological, Hebrew, or Latin Correspondence), if you draw the line representing the zodiac through the pattern, you never end up with a double twist.

I guess I just don't get it. Any answers?
There's another thread that deals with your questions here, "The Star Card"
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=52816

see particularly the last page, and my own post #140 which concludes -

"The three systems - alphabetic, astrological, and tarot - are not able to be seamlessly combined. But they can be elegantly and symmetrically related, and this is what Crowley sought and why he found the Tzaddi-Heh, Emperor-Star, Aquarius-Aries switch convincing."

For Crowley the structure of the Tree was inviolable. The Sephiroth are 1-10 and the Alphabet paths between them stay where they are. Heh still mediates between Chokhmah and Tiphereth.

What changes are the cards *on* the paths, and the Zodiacal attributions of the cards - so the Star takes Aquarius up to Heh, and the Emperor takes Aries down to Tzaddi.

The "double loop" refers to the symmetry this Thelemic change makes with the earlier Cypher Manuscript G.D. change to the astrological attributions of Leo and Libra to Strength and Justice.

The Cypher Manuscript (the foundational document of the Golden Dawn) said the Leo should go to Strength and Libra to Justice, which "causeth a transposition" between these cards, because it changes the Zodiacal order of the trumps, which was straightforward and made Justice take Leo and Strength take Libra (the Hermit taking Virgo and the Wheel of Fortune taking a planet, Jupiter). So these two cards became "transposed" in the symbolism, separated by one sign, Virgo.

So when Crowley came to the conclusion that Tzaddi should be the Emperor and Heh the Star, he noticed at some point (I think sometime in 1918) that the Zodiacal attributions of these cards, Aries-Emperor and Aquarius-Star, are also separated only by one sign, Pisces, and further that Pisces and Virgo are at exact opposite points on the Zodiac.

When you make a diagram of the circle of the Zodiac, with a circle drawn between the two transposed sets of cards, you see that there is a symmetrical "double loop" (symmetrical because Pisces and Aries are opposite, and their neighbors are too). I believe it is this symmetry, and his firm faith in the Secret Chiefs and the authority behind the GD, that made Crowley finally accept the transposition of the Emperor and the Star on the Tree of Life as the answer to the riddle posed to him in the Book of the Law.

Ross



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Old 23-06-2008 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #38
Lore347 
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Thank you for the well thought out reply, Ross.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell
For Crowley the structure of the Tree was inviolable. The Sephiroth are 1-10 and the Alphabet paths between them stay where they are. Heh still mediates between Chokhmah and Tiphereth.

What changes are the cards *on* the paths, and the Zodiacal attributions of the cards - so the Star takes Aquarius up to Heh, and the Emperor takes Aries down to Tzaddi.

The "double loop" refers to the symmetry this Thelemic change makes with the earlier Cypher Manuscript G.D. change to the astrological attributions of Leo and Libra to Strength and Justice.
This touches upon the issue I am wrestling with (and have been for about 8 years off and on). I do not "see" the double loop.

Path and Hebrew order are the same, that organization is considered immutable in both the Golden Dawn and Thelemic traditions. If you lay out the cards in Thoth order, then yes you are forced to switch two pairs of cards to reorganize them into Hebrew order. There is a double swap in this case. I assume the whole "revolving" comment by Crowley and mentioned by you relates to this fact? This is the only case I can find where two swaps are present in any reordering. We don't even look at the Zodiac in this case.

As far as the Zodiac relates to the issue, only one swap is ever made at any one time. In Thoth order only Leo and Libra are transposed since Emperor-Aries and Star-Aquarius remain intact. If you shift the cards into Hebrew order you fix Leo-Libra and disorder Aries-Aquarius. If you instead place the cards in Zodiac progression, only Heh and Tzaddi are out of sequence if we look only at the Hebrew attributes.

The only way I can see a "double loop" when one is using the Zodiac as a measure is if we reorganize our cards based on the Zodiac first and then allow the single instance of Major Arcana disorder to be one "swap" and the single Hebrew disorder to be a second. I cannot find an organization pattern involving the Zodiac that ever has 2 pairs of cards transposed using only one additional set of attributes beyond the astrological, either using Golden Dawn or Thelemic Systems.

Here is my data, maybe I am making a mistake or missing an important comparison:
Code:
***Golden Dawn***
Hebrew and Tarot Attribution: No Swaps
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 090 100 200 300 400
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020 021
Card Disorders: - --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Hebrew and Zodiac Attribution: No Swaps
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 090 100 200 300 400
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Ari Tau Gem Can Leo Vir --- Lib --- Sco Sag Cap --- Aqu Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Tarot and Zodiac Attribution: No Swaps
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020 021
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Ari Tau Gem Can Leo Vir --- Lib --- Sco Sag Cap --- Aqu Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---



***Thelema***
Hebrew and Thoth  Attribution: 2 Swaps
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 090 100 200 300 400
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 017 005 006 007 011 009 010 008 012 013 014 015 016 004 018 019 020 021
Card Disorders: - --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- *B* --- --- *B* --- --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- ---

Hebrew and Zodiac Attribution: 1 Swap
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 090 100 200 300 400
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Aqu Tau Gem Can Leo Vir --- Lib --- Sco Sag Cap --- Ari Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- ---

Thoth and Zodiac Attribution: 1 Swap
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020 021
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Ari Tau Gem Can Lib Vir --- Leo --- Sco Sag Cap --- Aqu Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *B* --- --- *B* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

*Thoth Reorganized (Hebrew Order) and Zodiac Attribution: 1 Swap
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 017 005 006 007 011 009 010 008 012 013 014 015 016 004 018 019 020 021
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Aqu Tau Gem Can Leo Vir --- Lib --- Sco Sag Cap --- Ari Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- ---

*Thoth Reorganized (Zodiac Order) and Hebrew Attribution: 1 Card Swap, 1 Hebrew Swap (2 Swaps total)
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 011 009 010 008 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020 021
Card Disorders: - --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *B* --- --- *B* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 090 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 005 100 200 300 400
Hebrew Disorders: --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- ---
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Old 24-06-2008 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #39
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I'm not sure I understand what problems you're seeing, Lore. You might actually be looking right at it (you have all pieces of puzzle) but the three systems (astrological, alphabetic, tarot) don't combine seamlessly. But Crowley thought that the elegance of the pairings in one (the astrological) proved the correctness of the transposition in a second (the Tarot). He was looking for some kind of confirmation for his attempts to figure out what card Tzaddi should be. It seems that his emphasis on this "double loop in the Zodiac" attributions of the cards indicates that his discovery of it is what convinced him that the Emperor and Star positions on the Tree was the correct solution.

Crowley's term "double loop" (illustrated on page 11 of BoT) refers only to the fact that the two pairs of card transpositions are attributed to zodiacal signs that are on each side of one sign (Pisces and Virgo). Because they are transposed, he sees each pair as "looping" around Pisces and Virgo respectively. Emperor and Star/Aries and Aquarius rotate around Pisces, and Justice and Strength/Libra and Leo rotate around Virgo. Pisces and Virgo are 180° apart, directly opposite one another, which gives complete balance to the pairs of rotations.

I'm not aware that anybody in the GD ever thought that the switch of positions of Justice and Strength was a "loop" around Virgo. The switch in the first place was due to the authority of a single document which the founders claimed to have come from the Secret Chiefs, and the document's reasoning was historical and iconographical - primarily, Leo should go with a card that has a Lion, and Justice with the sign of the Balance, Libra.

In order to keep the Zodiac order of the Trumps straight, (Leo, Virgo, Libra, etc.) Strength, traditionally numbered 11, had to be moved to the position of Justice, numbered 8, and vice versa. Waite's deck, you'll note, does this, and he writes in PKT that he does not feel the need to explain his reasoning to the public for the change.

Crowley's Tarot restores the numbering of the old Tarot de Marseille, but changes the Hebrew letters to reflect the GD teaching. Additionally, he adds his own switch, so that Tzaddi, in the Thoth Tarot order, now comes between Daleth and Vav. But neither he nor the GD ever suggested that the Hebrew Alphabet was in need of revision! Only that the secret Tarot attributions were in need of revision. Crowley keeps the Roman Numerals of the cards in their traditional order for this latter revision as well, so that the Star is still number XVII, and the Emperor IV.

I think I understand your chart demonstrating the different orders according to the three schemes. But this is the point, that the three schemes, taken independently, can't be combined. One system, the Tarot attributions to Hebrew letters, and thus paths on the Tree of Life, is changed; but neither the order of the Zodiac as Zodiac, nor the Hebrew letters as Hebrew letters, is. However, the elegance of having two perfectly symmetrical pairings of these attributions on the circle of the Zodiac seemed like a major proof to Crowley of the rightness of his already intuited switch.

BTW, there doesn't have to be a pair of "loops" as Crowley illustrated it - just draw the Zodiac circle, and then draw a circle from Aries to Aquarius and back around (Pisces will be in the middle), and on the other side draw a circle from Leo to Libra and back (Virgo will be in the middle). This is the "symmetrical elegance" that convinced Crowley. Additionally, you might want to put or imagine the Tarot trumps associated with their respective Zodiac signs.

I'm sure all this rambling hasn't clarified it... hopefully maybe. But it is just this, two pairs of switches seen as revolving around two opposing signs. Those are the "loops".

I think Crowley must have thought of the symbolism of the change of Aeons from Pisces to Aquarius involved in this switch too, but I can't recall him ever mentioning it explicitly.

Ross



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Last edited by Ross G Caldwell; 25-06-2008 at 00:25.
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