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Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
But that same construct is a symbol, even an echo, of the "real" Atziluthic Tree. Seen from that perspective, the only real Trumps are those in Atziluth, all the ones in the lower worlds are modified heavily.

ETA: or did everyone just say that in different words?
An Atziluthic Trump!? I don't think I've ever seen one of those. On second thoughts is it even possible to see one?

I'm aware of pictorial Yetziratic Orcale called the Tarot that is backed up by a system of Yetziratic correspondences. But again this is just a map trying to represent 'something else' on a completely different plane of being in a highly inadequate, distorted, lower analogue language of form, colour, and symbol.

As Crowley rightly points out, the Tarot is only valid up to 7=4 in the realms below the Abyss. Blame it on the Ruach and it's limitations.
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Originally Posted by Aeon418 View Post
I'm aware of pictorial Yetziratic Orcale called the Tarot that is backed up by a system of Yetziratic correspondences. But again this is just a map trying to represent 'something else' on a completely different plane of being in a highly inadequate, distorted, lower analogue language of form, colour, and symbol.
To me, the Trumps are pretty much synonymous with their numbers in meaning. What about them? Are they also a highly inadequate, distorted, lower analogue language? Is all that we poor Assiah beings ever get handed nothing but rubbish?
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Originally Posted by Aeon418 View Post
An Atziluthic Trump!? I don't think I've ever seen one of those. On second thoughts is it even possible to see one?
Well, no, but that's the point. Let's take the pure being of the Fool as an example, an abstract and unfathomable concept if ever there was one. He exists in that state of purity only in Atziluth, because in the lower worlds he exists as a kind of Fool with baggage. Those lower worlds act as kind of describing Atziluth, but when you finally get there, and things don't have names anymore because there's no one to name anything, then there's the true essences of the Trumps. I would guess that you can't see them, you can only be them. They aren't Trumps as we would know them, they're the reasons why the Trumps exist. Something like that.

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Originally Posted by Aeon418 View Post
I'm aware of pictorial Yetziratic Orcale called the Tarot that is backed up by a system of Yetziratic correspondences. But again this is just a map trying to represent 'something else' on a completely different plane of being in a highly inadequate, distorted, lower analogue language of form, colour, and symbol.
Of course, but we do our best to make up theories about those hidden realms. But the problem is shared by any science, that you can't be completely disconnected and objective. If you study an atom's electrons, you affect its protons. Any application of the Tree changes by the model you're using. For this conversation we may assume a four Tree structure from top to bottom, but we can also assume an interconnected three dimensional Tree in which case the behavior is modified. Although the base is the same, the application is different. Of course, both models are in themselves very right and very wrong.

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Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
To me, the Trumps are pretty much synonymous with their numbers in meaning. What about them? Are they also a highly inadequate, distorted, lower analogue language? Is all that we poor Assiah beings ever get handed nothing but rubbish?
In a way, yes, but in a good way. We see the end result, which in turn becomes Keter itself, because the only thing to do with a finished product is to use it and create with it. We don't get rubbish, we get everything.
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Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
Well, no, but that's the point. Let's take the pure being of the Fool as an example, an abstract and unfathomable concept if ever there was one. He exists in that state of purity only in Yetzirah, because in the lower worlds he exists as a kind of Fool with baggage. Those lower worlds act as kind of describing Yetzirah, but when you finally get there, and things don't have names anymore because there's no one to name anything, then there's the true essences of the Trumps. I would guess that you can't see them, you can only be them. They aren't Trumps as we would know them, they're the reasons why the Trumps exist. Something like that.
What this brings to mind is C.G. Jung's explanation that the Archetypes as such have no tangible forms albeit they show themselves in many forms. Much like the pattern that underlies the growth of a crystal is an abstraction, yet it expresses itself in so many individual crystals. Likewise it could be said that we don't know THE Tarot - all we know is so many of its possible manifestations. In a way, we could say that an Archetype is the sum of all its possible expressions - and yet it is more.
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Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
In a way, yes, but in a good way. We see the end result, which in turn becomes Keter itself, because the only thing to do with a finished product is to use it and create with it. We don't get rubbish, we get everything.
Nicely said, clos. Helps me to get over my Assiah crisis. The physical world as the cutting edge of existence... Malkuth, the Kingdom... Doesn't sound bad at all. Yeah, what we make out of it is what really matters.
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Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
What this brings to mind is C.G. Jung's explanation that the Archetypes as such have no tangible forms albeit they show themselves in many forms. Much like the pattern that underlies the growth of a crystal is an abstraction, yet it expresses itself in so many individual crystals. Likewise it could be said that we don't know THE Tarot - all we know is so many of its possible manifestations. In a way, we could say that an Archetype is the sum of all its possible expressions - and yet it is more.
Sorry, I messed up. I wrote Yetzirah when I meant Atziluth. The point remains, though, and I agree with you. I guess you got my meaning despite the flub.
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Originally Posted by Zephyros View Post
I've never read Jung, but I'm sick of him already! Will someone explain to me what's so brilliant that every New Age mouth seems totally enamored of him? I've even noticed such people never actually say anything by or of him, merely the mention of the name is enough to elicit nods from everyone else, never mind that his name is used to justify meaningless drivel.

Bleh.

Sorry, end of rant. Must be the pre-workout talking.
It is time you read Carl Jung. It is impossible for anyone to allay your irritation unless you know of that which you speak. Only then will you be in a position to judge with any kind of objectivity or wisdom. I would recommend beginning with "Two Essays on Analytical Psychology.
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I've read Jung -- but reading Jung won't change Zephyros's point that Jung's name is so often evoked to justify meaningless drivel ---
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Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
I've read Jung -- but reading Jung won't change Zephyros's point that Jung's name is so often evoked to justify meaningless drivel ---
That's not Jung's fault. There is a reason he is often referenced. Try rereading him with an open mind.....or don't. It is your loss.
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I've read Jung -- but reading Jung won't change Zephyros's point that Jung's name is so often evoked to justify meaningless drivel ---
I've read a lot of Jung, and I agree with your observation. The same thing happens with quantum theory.
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