Thelema, OTO, Golden Dawn...

sweet_intuition

Anyone over here belong to any of these groups or perhaps have thought about joining them? I've always thought about perhaps seeing what they are all about, or getting some reading material about their practices, yet somehow I always stop myself from doing so. There are all the numerous controversies and all, and all the things I hear about them kinda make me not wanna do anything with them. However, I am always interested to hear what other people have to say.. so please, do let me know what your views about such organizations/societies/groups are.

Thank You
 

Lillie

Does the Golden Dawn still exist?

The way I see stuff like this, is, if you can find out who they are and join at will (usually for a payment) then they are probably just after the payment.
Like them ones you see in magazines?
Rosicrucians who will give you a training course on the secrets on the universe that only they know for the anual fee of...(whatever, far too much for me to afford)

And if any group is real, and really does have the secrets of the universe, or the conversation with the secret Grand Masters, then I doubt they would ever give me the invite.

Not that I would mind knowing the secrets of the universe, I just don't think that anyone who had them would give them to me.

On the other hand, if you are looking for groups of dodgy people practicing sex magick without a valid license, I'm sure there are some aound.
And if you are young and beautiful I expect you would get an invite no problems.
On the other hand, if you are old and ugly and rich I expect you could get an invite too.
Regalia costs.
 

MikeTheAltarboy

If there were a Golden Dawn group near me, I'd probably try to join. :)

Not to learn the Secrets of the Universe, since their teachings are long published, but rather for the community. It's simply easier to stay focused on your studies and practices when you have support.

The OTO on the other hand, I'm not particularly interested, though it's around too. I'm not sure if thelemites have an order though... Although I know some GD groups are more thelema-influenced than others. I believe Crowley's A.A. was meant to be done on one's own and not in community anyway.
 

sweet_intuition

Lillie said:
On the other hand, if you are looking for groups of dodgy people practicing sex magick without a valid license, I'm sure there are some aound.
And if you are young and beautiful I expect you would get an invite no problems.
On the other hand, if you are old and ugly and rich I expect you could get an invite too.

LOL... Damn.. there goes my chance of getting an invite..lol

MikeTheAltarboy said:
If there were a Golden Dawn group near me, I'd probably try to join. :)

Not to learn the Secrets of the Universe, since their teachings are long published, but rather for the community. It's simply easier to stay focused on your studies and practices when you have support.

That's precisely what I had in mind in favor of joining such groups. I thought it would be great to be in a group where like-minded people could get together and study and practice esoteric teachings. Plus all the support from people around you can be an encouraging help.

Although Aeclectic Tarot is already a cool place to belong to to learn about the Tarot and relating subjects.

MikeTheAltarboy said:
I believe Crowley's A.A. was meant to be done on one's own and not in community anyway.

That's interesting, could you tell me more about it.
 

Aeon418

Lillie said:
Does the Golden Dawn still exist?
That depends on who you ask. :laugh:

In my opinion all the modern day Golden Dawn groups fall into two categories.
1) Some are loosely connected with one of the various illegitimate splinter groups that broke away from the original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. None of the founders of these splinter groups had valid charter to set up their own orders or to initiate new members.

2) Some groups are just modern day reconstructions based on published material found in any good bookshop. Some of these kinds of groups try to hide that fact.

For some people the whole lineage and lack of valid charter issue is a touchy subject that they don't like to talk about. Some claim that the magical work being done is all that is really needed. But that begs the question of why so many of these groups covet the name Golden Dawn so much and try to hem it around with (TM) and (C) as if it gives them some sort of validity. :rolleyes:
The Golden Dawn is dead. Modern groups are merely working a Golden Dawn based magical system. But that doesn't mean they are THE Golden Dawn, no matter how much they like to claim they are.

As an example:
If I bought a book on Freemasonry and set up my own lodge, does that give me the right to initiate other people as legitimate Freemasons? No. ;)
 

Aeon418

sweet_intuition said:
That's interesting, could you tell me more about it.
Crowley's essay, One Star in Sight, gives you a general overview of the A.'.A.'. system of initiation: http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/aba/app2.html

The A.'.A.'. is Crowley's reformulation of the Golden Dawn, but with one big difference. The Golden Dawn was a lodge based system that involved group initiations. The A.'.A.'. is an essentially solitary system and was designed by Crowley after his bad experiences with the Golden Dawn. The trouble with the Golden Dawn was the diverse mix of personality types and temperaments. Personality clashes are inevitable in magical groups and that is exactly what tore the Golden Dawn apart.

Even towards the end of his life Crowley seemed to have strong views on group work. In one letter in Magick Without Tears he had this to say to one student:
but the idea that you should meet other members first is quite impossible. Even after affiliation, you would not meet anyone unless it were necessary for you to work in cooperation with them. I am afraid you have still got the idea that the Great Work is a tea-party. Contact with other students only means that you criticize their hats, and then their morals; and I am not going to encourage this. Your work is not anybody else's; and undirected chatter is the worst poisonous element in human society.
Some people are confused on the difference between the A.'.A.'. and the O.T.O. While both orders are Thelemic, they are very different from each other. The A.'.A.'., according to Crowley, is a sempiternal spiritual order. The O.T.O. is a Fraternal order similar to Masonry that has accepted the Law of Thelema. The O.T.O. is a temporal order whose underlying purpose is the building of a new society along Thelemic lines. Individual spiritual advancement doesn't have anything to do with the O.T.O. per se.
Firstly, then, I would have thee to know that Spiritual Experience and Perfection have no necessary connection with Advancement in our Holy Order. But for each Man is a Path: there is a Constant, and there is a Variable. Seek ever therefore in thy Work of the Promulgation of the Law to discover in each Man his own true Nature.

For in each Man his Inmost Light is the Core of his Star. That is, Hadit; and his Work is the Identification of himself with that Light.
It is not every Man who is called to the sublime Task of the A.'.A.'., wherein he must master thoroughly every Detail of the Great Work, so that he may in due Season accomplish it not only for himself, but for all who are bound unto him. There are very many for whom in their present Incarnations this Great Work may be impossible; since their appointed Work may be in Satisfaction of some Magical Debt, or in Adjustment of some Balance, or in Fulfilment of some Defect. As is written: Suum Cuique.

Liber Aleph
 

Abrac

I had a brief affiliation with Freemasonry, and I have read quite a bit about some of these other groups and also read some of their publications. The one element I have noticed about all of them is that they seem to get a lot more enjoyment out of intellectual meandering than in the actual practice of magic. Anton LaVey has said it best: "If the most direct line between two points is a straight line, traditional occultists would do well as maze-makers."

Magic and the occult seems to attract basically two types of people: 1. Those for whom magic is a means to a more spiritual end. They believe that through the right knowledge and the right rituals they can attain a higher wisdom resulting in a spiritual transformation and ultimately, eternal life. Magic isn't a part of their life...it IS their life. 2. Those for whom magic is an element or a practice which they employ under certain circumstances to obtain a particular result. They are more practical minded and results oriented. The majority of those within occult fraternaties fall into the first category. There is nothing wrong with this if that is your bag, but if you join up hoping for number 2 you will probably be greatly disappointed. If, on the other hand, you are looking for a way to higher consciousness or spiritual evolution, this might be the way to go. And there are plenty of these groups out there.

Crowley said something like, "magic is causing change to occur in accordance with your will." (roughly paraphrased) Those in category 2 add a little something more to this, "causing change to occur in accordance with your will when the use of other more ordinary means or methods proves ineffective. For these people magic isn't necessarily the weapon of first choice. For them magic is just one tool in a large tool bag. You won't find them hanging out in fraternity halls or brotherhoods. They will be too busy with more practical matters.
 

Wayfarer

Regular and well governed Lodges of Freemasons are not interested in practicing exoteric magick. While they do engage in ritual, it is not typically rituals that traditional occultists are interested in. Freemasonry does utilize an intellectual approach of self-reflection for enlightenment through symbols. If you are looking for ritual magick work, you would probably be disappointed by petitioning a Lodge of Masons.
 

sweet_intuition

So there isn't any point in joining such organizations as all the work is already printed and available via book stores and the internet?
 

Aeon418

sweet_intuition said:
So there isn't any point in joining such organizations as all the work is already printed and available via book stores and the internet?
Everything may already be in print but do you know what do with it? How to start? Or which direction to go? That's where a magical order may help you the most.
Of course there's nothing stopping you from making a start right now on your own.