Introduction - Contrasting the Dodal and Conver

Introduction - Contrasting the Dodal and Conver

Welcome
Welcome to a new, informal study of two of the most influential TdM (Tarot of Marseilles) decks that have been passed down to us over the centuries. Most TdM decks, both historical and modern, display an association to these two decks, and by studying them, we hope to gain a better understanding of the development of the influences that have contributed to "Tarot" as we know it today.

[See the Forum Table of Contents for existing threads]

The forum moderators (jmd and le pendu) hope that by exploring these wonderful decks a deeper appreciation and understanding of the TdM may be realized by the study participants.

We've chosen the decks by Jean Dodal and Nicolas Conver because, while they are very similar in their iconography, they may also represent two distinct "patterns". One of the goals of this study is to determine if they do indeed represent two "streams" of the TdM pattern, but mostly, we hope to increase our understanding of the TdM and appreciation for the contributions that early deck creators have passed on to us hundreds of years later in the 21st Century.

Hopefully, by comparing and contrasting these decks, we will gain a better understanding of the evolution of the TdM (and its "relations"), and have a deeper appreciation of the subtleties that define this tradition, and its subsequent patterns.

Some assumptions before we begin:

Neither deck is THE "true" TdM.
When discussing the TdM, it's tempting to believe that there is a "true" TdM on which all others are based. While this may be true, we assume that neither the Dodal nor the Conver fully represent the essence of TdM, nor that they entirely reflect an earlier, "Standard" pattern. Rather, we assume that they are both modified manifestations of an earlier source, with adaptations by their creators reflecting both personal inclinations, technological restrictions, and standard iconography of their time.

Neither Jean Dodal nor Nicolas Conver created the pattern they exhibit.
It is almost certain that both of these decks are based on the works of earlier card-makers. As we explore the iconography, we will most probably see influences from decks that predate both the Dodal and the Conver. We will also see how influential these patterns are, as they were duplicated and modified for centuries after they were created.

Reasons for the study:

A deeper understanding and appreciation for the "patterns' that we know as TdM
By examining, contrasting, and exploring these early decks, we will reach a deeper understanding of the tarot tradition that has been passed down to us.

A better understanding of the iconography that influenced decks in the 1700's, but also the effects of the iconography of these decks on modern decks
When we evaluate other decks of the period, we often turn to the TdM as a guidepost. Even today, many decks are based on these patterns (Kris Hadar, Camoin-Jodorowsky, and Rodes-Sanchez for example). By understanding the influences that shaped the TdM, and by recognizing that each of these are valid and contributative in their own way, we will gain the abililty to recognize patterns as well as appreciate the differences that each early deck contributes to our understanding of "Tarot" today.

We sincerely hope that these discussions will be interesting and informative. We invite everyone to participate, as we believe the more of us that are involved in the study, the greater the probability that we will all learn from the experience.

We hope that by focusing on the actual detailed imagery of the cards, everyone, no matter how experienced, will be able to contribute to this exploration.

Please ask any questions you may have about this study, or any suggestions that might make it more useful to the group.

best,
robert (le pendu), and jmd.

Now that the "Contrasting the Dodal and Conver" study has been going for a few weeks, I'd like to ask everyone what they think of the threads?

Are you finding them informative and interesting?

Do you think the way we have been adding the images to the thread is beneficial or perhaps distracting? Should we only post the Dodal and Conver and leave the rest of the images on the Association for Tarot Studies site?

Are we adding too many total images, or too many at the same time?

Do you have any suggestions that would make the threads more interesting to you?

Is there anything we might consider that might encourage participation by more members?

I'd really appreciate your input.

best,
robert

hi Robert,

I am enjoying the threads quite a lot, though I do not feel that I can speak about them as fluently as some of our scholars, so I am happily reading and truly enjoying the images you and jmd have given us. I think the way they are posted makes it that much more accessible, at least for me, the images are so large and clear, and there is no waiting to reach a link etc.

Also, I am really all for having many decks and many images represented, it seems to round out the study, and feels more inclusive. (and it's all of my personal favorites, so I do have a bias).

So, with that said, I do have a question, are we to strictly keep the discussion on the details of the cards and stay away from meanings/ how it may be read type talk? I do find myself straying sometimes from the original point of the exercise, and then I usually edit the heck out of my posts, until it is a mere sentence or 2....

Thanks jmd and Robert, I am finding this very helpful.

robert and jmd, I appreciate very much what you are doing in these threads. Mostly I read in this forum because there is more for me to learn from it than to be able to give. But its just brilliant. The images are a great help, making it easier to actually see the differences rather than go off Googling for them. Some of us don't have these decks or easy access to scans of the pictures, so it has saved a heap of time for me.

I know that essentially this is a study of the contrasts between the Dodal and Conver, but personally I like to see various different decks in the images because sometimes things in the Dodal or Conver become clearer by looking at other decks.

The comparing of cards is time consuming (not to mention the space needed) so its great to see the images all in one thread. Infact one of my favourite threads was one started by Shalot which discusses this very thing:

Comparative Exercise

I will be contributing more in the future but I'm not sure that what I notice is necessarily going to help much with the aim of the study, which you say is to form.. 'A deeper understanding and appreciation for the "patterns' that we know as TdM'. I'll try though.

Moonbow*

From my own personal perspective, and in answer to Astrid O's question as to whether we are 'to strictly keep the discussion on the details of the cards and stay away from meanings / how it may be read type talk', I would suggest that it partly depends on whether the 'meanings' result from looking carefully at the images, or whether from extraneous considerations (for example, considerations of the MBTI would here be, I would suggest, not pertinent to these threads).

For example, to suggest that Knights having spurs may be seen as an individual with more forced control over his steer (ooppss - not a bovine, but an equus caballus) than the Knight without spurs would also allow a focus on a detail - the implied meaning of course going beyond what the imagery literally provides.

With regards to Moonbow*'s comment about participating, I personally always value reading others' contribution - and even what may seem so obvious to someone else may suddenly aid in providing a new way of looking at something to myself or another reader

jmd said:

From my own personal perspective, and in answer to Astrid O's question as to whether we are 'to strictly keep the discussion on the details of the cards and stay away from meanings / how it may be read type talk', I would suggest that it partly depends on whether the 'meanings' result from looking carefully at the images, or whether from extraneous considerations (for example, considerations of the MBTI would here be, I would suggest, not pertinent to these threads).

For example, to suggest that Knights having spurs may be seen as an individual with more forced control over his steer (ooppss - not a bovine, but an equus caballus) than the Knight without spurs would also allow a focus on a detail - the implied meaning of course going beyond what the imagery literally provides.

With regards to Moonbow*'s comment about participating, I personally always value reading others' contribution - and even what may seem so obvious to someone else may suddenly aid in providing a new way of looking at something to myself or another reader

Click to expand...

I couldn't say it better myself, so I won't!

I just wanted to see if everyone was enjoying them and had any suggestions.

best,
robert

I like the layout of the thread and the direct placing of the images instead of the usual attachments. All I would like is periphery stuff. Is there indication how much the decks cost? Are the decks a standard size? Are there tell tale signs with colours/printmakers etc. Any paintings around with Tarot in them? or Tarrocchi? All gossipy stuff really Any symbolic reason why an arm and hand is showing one and hidden in the next etc. Just telling the differences without speculation as to why- is bland. The scholars here can tell us so much and thats what I am interested in- even if there is divergent opinion. Needless to say I am enjoying what has been presented so far. Thanks for the threads. ~Rosanne

Over the past few weeks, some major changes have been happening that affect these threads, as the images came from the Association for Tarot Studies site:

a) firstly, the ISP has changed (which also means that emails to my ATS address are currently not reaching me, by the way), and alterations had to be made to various settings;

and

b) we have decided to MOVE the 'compare' pages from the ATS to the tarothistory.com site, as this seemed appropriate.

As a consequence, and whilst all this (and more) is happening, no new threads have been created....

...we'll resume very shortly

Good.

I enjoy them a lot.