Astrological attribution of the cards

Hi!

I don't know whether this has been asked and discussed before, I scanned this forum for it, but couldn't find anything - so here goes:

I was thinking about the attributions for each of the cards - yesterday I drew the 10 of Wands and learned that it is Saturn in Sagittarius - and immediately the nosy child in me asks "Why? Says who?"

Seriously - where do those attributions come from? Did Crowley make up the system? Or is there a system that I could study and possibly learn to understand (as opposed to learning by heart, which is something that absolutely does not agree with me)? Does the attributions referred in the Book of Thoth apply to ALL deck-systems, or just is it just for this one, Crowley's own interpretation of the cards, translated into astrological terms?

Are there any good, plain English resources where I will be able to understand these things a bit better?

Thanks a lot for any input on this question!
Jenny

Hi Jenny,

I believe Crowley used the Golden Dawn system (of which he was a member) of astrological correspondences.

I realize that without a diagram this might be useless. But if you have an astrological chart you could try placing the 36 Number Cards around it using the following system.

The Golden Dawn assigned each Number card (2-10) to one of the Decanates of the zodiac-i.e. one of the 36 divisions of 10 degrees on a zodiacal chart. The Aces are considered the root of the element and are not assigned a decan.

So each of the 36 Small Cards represents one decan (10 degrees) of the zodiac:

Fire signs are assigned to Wands: Aries, Leo, Sagittarius
Water signs are assigned to Cups: Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces
Air signs are assigned to Swords: Gemini, Libra, Aquarius
Earth signs are assigned to Pentacles: Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn

The 2s, 3s, 4s represent the cardinal signs of the zodiac: Aries, Cancer, Libra, and Capricorn.
The 5s, 6s, 7s represent the fixed signs of the zodiac: Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, and Aquarius.
The 8s, 9s, 10s represent the mutable signs of the zodiac: Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius, and Pisces.

Thus the 2, 3, 4 of Wands represent the 1st, 2nd and 3rd decans of Aries-because 2s, 3s and 4s represent Cardinal Signs. Wands are Fire and Aries is the cardinal fire sign of the zodiac. The 5, 6, 7 of Wands represent the 1st, 2nd and 3rd decans of Leo and the 8, 9, 10 of Wands represent the 1st, 2nd and 3rd decans of Sagittarius.

Next a planet is also assigned to each of the 36 Number Cards. In the Qabalah each of the 7 ancient planets is assigned to a particular sephiroth on the Qabalistic Tree of Life. Starting with 0 degrees Leo (the 5 of Wands), planets are assigned to the Number Cards in descending Tree of Life order. That order is: Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon (This is repeated four times). Mars repeats itself at the last decan of Pisces and the first decan of Aries (in other words each planet gets 5 cards except for Mars which gets 6 cards).

So there is a method to this. To answer your second question this method applies to decks based on the golden dawn system and I assume it's the most common one, but other individuals have adapted astrology to fit there own interpretations of the tarot.

I hope this helps at least a little.

Rose

Jenny-Li-- I can't tell you anything about the Golden Dawn's method of astrological attibutions for the cards, but I can tell you that the 10 of Wands in my Rider-Waite-Smith deck does not mean "Saturn in Sagittarius". Also, as an astrologer, I don't see Saturn in Sagittarius as having the same meaning as the 10 of Wands at all. Please take astrological interpretations in tarot with a big grain of salt. The attributions MAY have relevence inside the system you are studying (in this case Thoth), but not once you go outside it to other sources (like other decks or actual astrology practices).

P.S. I think it's good to be a "nosy child" sometimes! I often question the origins of the tarot, in order to understand where the deck creator was coming from, and how their personal theory fits into the big picture of tarot history. I also think it's great that you don't just blindly accept someone else's system. There are many world views, and this is just one of them! Study it, and if it doesn't work for you then move on to another deck, or apply your own system to the imagery on the cards.

Rose: Thank you so much for your indepth reply, I'm impressed and stunned...! I must confess I didn't really undestand all of it, but since I'm only just starting with astrology too, so to be honest I didn't really count on "getting" it anyway... I have ordered my first astrology book, it will be delivered next week - I will sit down with a chart and a deck and see for myself. I'm pretty sure it will all become apparent when I see it for myself! Thank you, again!

Littleneptune: Hey! You edited your posts! Good thing I got to read them before you did - the first ones gave me a good laugh! Seriously, I never was one for uncritically accepting stuff that don't make sense to me, so I don't think I'm in any danger there...! I might, however, be a bit too quick in deciding it must be me who is too stupid to understand, so it's a good thing to know I'm not the only one disagreeing with the "experts"... I am planning to start studying astrology for the first time in my life now, my first book will be delivered to me next week. (Guess who can hardly wait!) I am hoping that everything will contribute to everything else, and that it will generate a sum of insight greater than the different subjects by themselves. It has worked before..!

Thank you, both of you!

Jenny

I think Crowley has his own interpretation of the cards, he lets some things be understood in the Book of Thoth. But I would like to know more.

Phew! Thank goodness there is an astrologer in the house.....

Thanks Rose that was a really interesting reply.

Everyone else,

Crowley was indeed a member of the Original Golden Dawn, but let's not forget that even though there are GD influences in the Thoth deck Crowley had formed at this time the Thelemites.

I would suggest reading some material on this. You may already be aware the Thelemic GD was based around the Stele of Revealing which inspired Liber AL vel Legis sub figura CCXX or The Book of Law.

So at this stage don't be misled into interpreting the Thoth darks with traditonal GD practices. It is not.

a couple of links to add to this thread:

The Equinox of the Gods ~ http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/eoftg/

Thelemic Antecedents, Spawns and Criticisms ~
http://www.geocities.com/firebrand93t/home.html

*s*
peace,
~Cail

Hi,

The issue of Astrological 'correspondences' has been discussed recently in the thread

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16878

and is worth a read, though it's more linked to Waite than Crowley.

For my part I agree with LittleNeptune. I can certainly see some Astrological analogies in the Tarot - but I can also see a fair number of differences, and as LN says, an Astrologer would not recognise the correspondence between planet/sign and card that Crowley outlines.

Not that I am a pro astrologer, but yeah, the correspondences threw me for a bit too. I figured there was some system behind it and while some associations made perfect sense, others... well I guess we shall see when we begin to discuss them!