Book T and the Astrological Signs

Grigori

Aeon418 said:
I don't want to sound like a kill-joy, but does anyone else think that the current exclusive focus on astrology is, or can be, a little misleading.

I agree with that absolutely. We are only looking at a small part of the story, and it will become less clear as we look at cards later in the suits. The early numbers the astrology fits more clearly I think, as we progess the "other things" seem to come into play more. I've been trying to choose examples that are the clearest astrologically, so we can get a foot in the door.

I don't mean to suggest that this is the be all and end all of the method, as it certainly isn't. I decided to pursue the topic in this way, as the symbols of astrology are a little more familar to people, and particularly regarding the minors, usually completely ignored. They also translate better into the pictures, so people using a RWS clone can still see the things we're talking about in their deck.

My opinion was this seems a good way to help beginners get into the information, and excited about it. One step at a time. And then when we're closer to talking the same language, we can really dive into the deep end, and will have left a great resource in our wakes. I do worry that this approah will hold the conversation back a bit, but hopefully this will be a long haul project and everything will have its time and place.

In the meantime but, this is just a couple of threads, and we have the whole section. Don't be shy to start something else

rachelcat

Hello, friends. I'm attaching my (boring, not round!) table of tarot astological attributions, refined to agree with Book T.

The following notes have all been covered elsewhere, but I thought I'd recap them in relation to the table.

First of all, it has traditional planets. (PLEASE someone check to make sure I've got the rulerships right: Scorpio is ruled by Mars; Aquarius by Saturn; and Pisces by Jupiter, right?) So I put the majors that have elemental attributions with the Aces and Princesses.

The whole Princesses rule the four quarters around the North Pole thing, and the Aces are at the North Pole, too, doesn't really work for TIME. It is "traditional?" Golden Dawn practice to attribute them to the seasons, according to the fixed sign (middle of the season), not the cardinal sign (beginning of the season). So Spring is the Ace of Pentacles, corresponding with earth sign Taurus (NOT Ace of Wands for fire sign Aries).

I don't think the Aces = seasons is anywhere in Book T. Does anyone know where it came from?

Note that the courts (other than Princesses) are "offset" from the signs: They consist of the last decan of one sign and the first two of the next.

The dates for the decans on the table are from DuQuette's Tarot of Ceremonial Magick. You may ignore if they don't help!

Note that the running order of the planets start with Saturn as the outermost going in--Starting with the beginning of LEO, not Aries.

And, because 7 planets times 5 is only 35, to make 36 decans, Mars is listed twice in a row as the last decan of Pisces and the first of Aries. To give the beginning of spring a little extra Martial (Martian?) fire power!

Last decan bit:
2, 3, 4 are Cardinal
5, 6, 7 are Fixed
8, 9, 10 are Mutable

Hope the table helps in your studies!

Grigori

rachelcat said:
(PLEASE someone check to make sure I've got the rulerships right: Scorpio is ruled by Mars; Aquarius by Saturn; and Pisces by Jupiter, right?) So I put the majors that have elemental attributions with the Aces and Princesses.

Thanks Rachelcat that is awesome! There is a typo for 5 of Pents, that should be Taurus, but otherwise looks perfect to me. I've never thought of the 4 Element Majors in that way, that is very interesting.

I've made a pdf version and attached it, in case some people have issues with the word.doc format.

ravenest

[Sorry guys - v.busy, cant get on the net much so I am running days behind on this - a bit frustrating as I really want to nut it out.]

similia said:
Yep. *glowers visciously at ravenest*

Yep also Everyone please ignore ravenest hehe

Truthfully, I personally don't think the difference between Signs and Constellations is important for me at this time, as I'm not applying the information in a way that relates to the actual sky. If we're drawing up astrology charts etc, that decisions becomes crucial, as it will change the results. When I draw a card that refers to Aries, I don't use that information in a way that makes a jot of difference if it refers to the Sign or the Constellation. To me it refers to the other cards also related to Aries, the cards related to Mars, the cards related to the Sun, the cards related to Venus etc..

However, you might be using the cards differently, in which case you might like to start a thread to tell us all about it

The point isnt so much in reading cards, it is more trying to grasp an understanding of the system used for astrology in the G.D. and its spillover (if any) into Thoth.

similia said:
Thanks for pointing out the charts at the back of Crowley, I've read them a dozen times and never noticed the reference to Pegasus and Hercules before. They do of course relate to the Courts and not specifically the minors, so for newbies following along with the minors discussion, I'd ignore that bit until a bit later down the track

Edit: You've peaked my curiosity ravenest. So I created a thread for you
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=1437351#post1437351

I had better take my mad ravings there then ... thanx.

ravenest

Thank You!!!

similia said:
I remembered something! Hurray for me. And eventually found where I'd read it.

Yes, seems you are half right. The Golden Dawn teaches the Tropical Zodiac, i.e. the Signs and not the Constellations.

However once you progress through the GD to the R.R. et A.C (the second or inner order of the Golden Dawn where the practical work begins) you frequently use the Sidereal Zodiac, and hence the Constellations.

AHA!!! That could be it! This has bugged me for years ... as well as the tables showing it in the back of BoT it is VERY clear in the GD (or should I say RR et AC) Book ... I mean it cant be MORE clear ... check the section headed VERY clearly 'Star maps' in GD attributions of the Courts, there is a whole heap of constellations mentioned. For most of my life as a hermeticcy Tarot type I have constantly asked these questions, even of people high up in GD and OTO and they dont seem to have a clue what I am talking about nor want to seem to discuss it.... {even Aeon didnt know! good Lord, what's the world coming to?

} And now finally after all these years of frustration someone FINALLY gives an intelligent response!

That could be it!
[Ed. + But I failed to notice the 'change over' where one system (tropical) and 'outer order' turns into the other system (celestial) and 'inner order', where (or when) does this come about?]
GD teaches the outward worldly tropical astrology but as one progresses, the true astrology (IMO) that actually relates to constellations and 'star beings', the original astrology ( Not IMO - I can proove that one ...IMO), the magical astrology ... not the tropical astrology that only relates to seasonal change and not stella cosmic influence. As in most things, the more you progress, the closer to the magical science you get.

similia said:
Which is why Book T lists the minors as starting from 0 degree Leo. The star Regulus (also known as Cor Leonis, the Heart of the Lion" is the starting point of the Zodiac, as as its a part of Leo, it means we're talking Sidereal astrology.

Yes, the GD starting point is Regulus, 0 deg Leo , Tropical astology starting point is NOT in the stars it is set at the point where the line of the ecliptic intersects the line of the plane of the solar system ... ie. its all to do with the tilt of the Earth. (ed. ... deleated as this should be in another post)

similia said:
I take it all back, please everyone listen to Ravenest

Not just me, when 'we' got out there in space NASA needed to develop a new system of measuring co-ordinates, as once you are off the earth you cant use an earth based refrence system. Guess where NASA'a co-ordinate system starts? Regulus as 0 deg.CL (celestial longitutde.)

similia said:
Although maybe not yet if your still trying to get the core stuff under your belt. Which is more important for regular tarot-ing I reckon.

But where DID GD get this system ... not from NASA, - not from secret R+C documents 600 years ago ... but where?

Oh yeah ... beginers? Dont listen to me ... I'll only confuse you ....

R.R. et A.C. only please :laugh:

I will make another thread;
Celestial astrology of the G.D. soon (no time today).

ravenest

rachelcat said:
A few years ago, I was at a resort that had a BIG ROUND table for playing cards upon, and I laid out my mini LS Universal in the order as shown in these zodiac circles. It's great for studying, and you get extra points for remembering which decans are for which minors! (I cheated. I used DeQuette's book for his Tarot of Ceremonial Magick as a cheat-sheet!)

Maybe we should have a challenge thread, and everyone can post pictures of their card circles! (Note to self to dig out disposable camera when I get home . . .)

Yeah ... thats the begining of the game. get a few friends, lay your cards out as above. Sit next to the cards of your birthdate, now observe how each realte to their cards and who is in opposition, conjunction etc.

ravenest

rachelcat said:
Hello, friends. I'm attaching my (boring, not round!) table of tarot astological attributions, refined to agree with Book T.

The following notes have all been covered elsewhere, but I thought I'd recap them in relation to the table.

First of all, it has traditional planets. (PLEASE someone check to make sure I've got the rulerships right: Scorpio is ruled by Mars; Aquarius by Saturn; and Pisces by Jupiter, right?) So I put the majors that have elemental attributions with the Aces and Princesses.

Put your astro trumps in a circle then put the minors (decans) infrom of the relevant astro trumps, The planetary Trumps can go in the ruling position inside the circle of the decans, (in a 'natural zodiac') or in the positions they are actually in when you lay them out, or in a natal position so astrology of the moment ... or a certain time, can be seen using the Tarot. I put the elemental trumps togeter in the middle to represent the earth (in this geocentric tarot model of the solar system)

rachelcat said:
The whole Princesses rule the four quarters around the North Pole thing, and the Aces are at the North Pole, too, doesn't really work for TIME. It is "traditional?" Golden Dawn practice to attribute them to the seasons, according to the fixed sign (middle of the season), not the cardinal sign (beginning of the season). So Spring is the Ace of Pentacles, corresponding with earth sign Taurus (NOT Ace of Wands for fire sign Aries).

But seasons are relative to earth position co-ordinates and place of solar orbit, See my post on Princess and aces and thrones where I try to nut out a whole spherical system.

rachelcat said:
I don't think the Aces = seasons is anywhere in Book T. Does anyone know where it came from?

No idea ... I'd love to know! But in any case it makes no sense to me at all, the whole system is top heavy and northern hemisphere biased.

rachelcat said:
Note that the courts (other than Princesses) are "offset" from the signs: They consist of the last decan of one sign and the first two of the next.

Interesting isnt it? Not sure why, its sort off a reverse precession? I though it was a solution to the tropical/sidereal thingo but (i think) these cards make a PROgression through the signs, where the eqinoctal point is a PREsession (back the other way ... isnt it?)

Always Wondering

Scion said:
Fire = Hot + Dry
Air = Hot + Wet
Water = Cold + Wet
Earth = Cold + Dry

With that in mind it's easier to see where elemental dignity comes from and also how astrology ascribes character to celestial events.

Also these don't refer to physical, mundane fire/Air/Water/Earth but to something more like a state. We might describe them as Energy/Gas/Liquid/Solid. The other thing worth noting is that Empedocles doesn't refer to them as elements but as Roots (Rhizomata). He says they are “form rather than content, structure rather than image.”

I am seeing lot's of reference to the elements. Crowley suggests to get a handle on Fire, Water and Air first. Then he starts mixing it up and loosing me. I have found the triangle symbols and the words hot cold wet and dry in 777 but no explaination. Hot, cold, wet, dry, = energy, gas, liquid, solid, makes sense. But sulpher, mercury and salt? Seems like I fall apart at the basics.

AW

elvenstar

Hi AW, maybe these links Kenny posted in this thread will help.

Re. mercury, salt, sulphur: http://www.alchemywebsite.com/reid1-2.html

Symbols for the elements: http://www.alchemywebsite.com/reid1-3.html

Always Wondering

Great. I don't know why I overlooked this thread. Probably because I don't have the deck.
Oh oh.

I am going to be wanting another deck I suppose.

AW

Book T and the Astrological Signs

Grigori

rachelcat

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Grigori

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ravenest

ravenest

ravenest

ravenest

Always Wondering

elvenstar

Always Wondering