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Do What Thou Wilt: Split from Book of Law Study Group 1.5

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yogiman  yogiman is offline
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Some nostalgia for Ravenest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
I meant within the one lifetime. I'm not sure 'Thelema' wants to get off the cycle of incarnation. Buddhism has a type of 'denial' that isnt in Thelema. The bottom line of Thelema isnt suffering, it has that 'trance' but goes beyond into a higher type of Vedanta (sort of).

Existance is pure joy!
I find this entire thread very interesting. In line with some posts within this thread I like to pose the question what is the fundamental difference between tantric buddhism/hinduism or taoism and the practise of Thelema?
Top   #51
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ravenest  ravenest is offline
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I am not into nostalgia at the moment, unless you are offering me a

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/photog...Bonneville.jpg

Here is an idea. It's a bout time you did some homework. How about YOU write a little paper on the subject and offer it up for OUR elucidation for a change ?

Here are some references to give you a kick start.

http://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox/i/ii/eqi02016.html

http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.p...c=2599.10;wap2

http://thelemite.tumblr.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text

Particularly this one; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Vedanta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelemic_mysticism
Top   #52
yogiman  yogiman is offline
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I will comment on statements from the articles that are important to me.

http://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox/i/ii/eqi02016.html

Quote:
I. Since truth is supra-rational, any rational statement is false.
II. Let the student than contradict every proposition that presents itself to him.
This approach resembles much of advaya philosophy (see below).

Is the statement -any rational statement is false- a rational statement?
Is the sentence -Thelema is about true spirituality- a proposition?


As shown in this diagram there is real correspondence between the yogic system and thelema. As the central theme of thelema is to follow your True Will, are you a thelemite when you practise the yoga path instead?

The Holy Qabalah...........Gnana-Yoga............Union by Knowledge
The Sacred Magic ..........Raja-Yoga ..............Union by Will
The Acts of Worship .......Bhakta-Yoga ...........Union by Love
The Ordeals ..................Hatha-Yoga.............Union by Courage
The Invocations .............Mantra-Yoga ...........Union through Speech
The Acts of Service .........Karma-Yoga ...........Union through Work




http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.p...c=2599.10;wap2


Since ancient times people have difficulty with swallowing the tenets of buddhism that “all life is sorrow” (first noble truth) and “there is no self”, as portrayed in the chinese painting, called the “vinegar tasters” (see wiki). Three old men dip their finger in a bowl with vinegar. They are Confucius, Buddha and Lao-Tzu, the founders of the three great religions in China. Confucius desires to the Golden Age by means of proper conduct; he finds the taste sour. To Buddha it tastes bitter, but Lao-Tzu finds it sweet. He mocks Confucius' concern for propriety, and he waves away Buddha's sorrow. He enjoys the flow of events. In reality people in China were flexible, and were motivated in their life doings by all three, accentuating one or the other depending on circumstances. In this picture Lao-Tzu reminds me of the god Pan in card XV., “who is exalted by all things equally”. There is a strong correspondence between Taoism and Thelema, but viewing it's ritual aspect Thelema is more structured. I would say it reflects all of the three religions, with an emphasis on taoism and with little attention for the moralism of a confucianism.

To be clear, Buddha lived 1000 years before the Vedanta, so he can't be responsible for any correction of the concept of -Self-. In this matter I let my opinion be guided by the last chapter in the -mystical qabalah-, wherein Dion Fortune describes how Christianity was a compensation to the Old Testament. In the same way Buddhism was likely a compensation to (at that time corrupted )hinduism. And again, I think we also should comprehend many of Crowley's statements to the background of the Victorean era. Crowley was to the Victorean era as Taoism to Confusianism. And to say that the philosophy of thelema is very similar to taoism is imo too strong, as thelema is still evolving and very personal. This is made clear by this passage in the next link


http://thelemite.tumblr.com/

Quote:
Finally, a Thelemite is under no obligation to do anything Crowley did, agree with anything Crowley wrote or said, or pay Crowley any kind of hommage. In fact, I would argue that the more a Thelemite’s life isn’t modelled after his, the happier they will be. He was no magical pope, no divine messenger, no prophet and no saint. If you disagree with him or disregard him, there is no risk of eternal damnation.
I am not so sure whether this pronouncement is in line with tantra (though there are various branches of tantra:
Quote:
The word of Sin is Restriction. O man! refuse not thy wife, if she will! O lover, if thou wilt, depart!*
In the book of thoth (p.160) Crowley equates the swan to the AUM, the quintessential sound of the universe. But swans are faithful for a lifetime, and if the partner dies they keep mourning, often till death follows. I am 52 now, so I prefer the attitude of the swan. Makes me wonder whether some writings of Crowley are aimed at a younger age group.
Quote:
Thelema has nothing to do with “sex magick.”
This is also true for tantra. Sexual tantra is the way it has been popularized in the western world, likely for commercial ends. By the way, almost all outsiders will have this prejudice about Thelema.
Quote:
Thelemites are under no obligations to confront, fight against or to dismantle structures of privilege and oppression. However, if a person’s True Will leads them into such challenges then they have no choice but to face them squarely. In cases of philanthropy, again, the Thelemite is under no obligations. But, if they do act then they should act in accordance with their True Will, from a place of authenticity, as one star greets another.
I think that in this aspect Thelema is different from Taoism. The emphasis in taoism is on avoiding of conflict. The fact that in the tarot the knight was swapped, shows also that courage was an important thing to Crowley, which is not surprising viewing his rebellious attitude in life. This assertive theme is likely absent in tantra.

I can't help to mention my beloved game of poker, which in its essence is so much representative of american culture, and in which “having heart” is a substantial element. This does make me wonder whether the path of Thelema is more suited to americans and north-europeans.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantras

Quote:
The Hindu Tantras total ninety-two scriptures, where sixty four are purely*Abheda*(literally "without differentiation", or*monistic), known as the*Bhairava*Tantras or*Kashmir Śaivite*Tantras, eighteen are Bhedābheda*(literally "with differentiation and without differentiation" or*monistic*cum*dualistic), known as the*Rudra*Tantras), and ten are completely*Bheda*(literally "differentiated" or*dualistic), known as the Śiva*Tantras.*
The philosophy of AC would imo in accordance with the Rudra Tantras.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism

Quote:
A distinction can be made between*advaita*and*advaya.[7][note 2]
"Advaita" is an ontological approach.[10]*It is knowledge of a differenceless entity, namely*Brahman*(Vedanta) orVijñāna.[10][note 3]
"Advaya" is an epistemological approach.[10]*It is knowledge free from the duality of the extremes of "is" and "is not".[10]*It is the Buddhist*Middle Way*between eternalism and annihilationism. In Mahayana*Buddhism, the*Middle Way*refers to the insight intoemptiness*that transcends opposite statements about existence.
Again, advaya is likely conform Crowley's thinking, as is suggested at the top of this post. It seems to me that Brahman is both Nuith and Hadith, and would correspond to the sephirah kether.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Vedanta


Central to neo-vedanta is the message that “all is one”. Crowley reflects this in his equation 2=0, but Crowley is more preoccupied (aware) with the dark side of the universe than the indian philosophy, which is rosy generally speaking.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelemic_mysticism

Quote:
Within the system that Crowley developed, the core task for the adept is the discovery and manifestation of*Will, defined at times as a grand destiny and at other times as a moment to moment path of action that operates in perfect harmony with Nature.*
The last statement clearly hints at taoism.

Quote:
For concentration does indeed unlock all doors; it lies at the heart of every practice as it is of the essence of all theory; and almost all the various rules and regulations are aimed at securing adeptship in this matter. All the subsidiary work — awareness, one-pointedness, mindfulness and the rest — is intended to train you to this.
This is very much in accordance with the practise of hatha yoga and vipassana.

The growing of a body of light is an taoist practise, as explained by Carl Jung in -the secret of the golden flower-. It is called the spiritual embryo , but is not meant for astral exploration, but to attain immortality.

My conclusion

In all three there is freedom for the practitioner. In thelema this freedom has a more willful, assertive aspect: the asian culture emphasizes -being-, thelema emphasizes -willing-. This implies that the individual is more important, which is also made clear by his poetic "telling-you" writing style.

As I can judge by the pictures, gnostic ritual is modelled after the catholic mass, and reflects the orderliness and straightness of our western culture, unlike nonwestern practises.

To all three sex is no major concern, though Crowley gives that impression. Crowley is more vehement in breaking with tradition than taoism and tantra. Almost after american example he is very active in promoting his philosophy. One could say that Crowley is more concerned with integrating "earthly reality", as illustrated by assigning a special place to the Beast of the Apocalypse. By the way, in the fifties the catholic church did something alike by granting a central place to Mary (Binah). This maybe shows Crowley's more realistic approach to the element earth, by portraying it in its wild and crude form. In this it is akin to the indian presentation. However, he is more dualistic than the indian way of presenting, in that he addresses the dark side of the universe.

Thelema is imo in accordance with the advaya school of Vedanta. It is less laissez-faire than taoism, but shares the openmindedness. A parallel can be drawn between the body of light and the spiritual embryo.

I am inclined to say: thelema is tantra/taoism for westerners, and tantra/taoism is thelema for asians.
Top   #53
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ravenest  ravenest is offline
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See ... when you knuckle down and do some study you can find your own conclusions that are much more palatable.

IM0 Thelema helps us to move beyond the sorrow of Buddhism (which can be seen as a false definition as Buddhism itself goes beyond that). It uses techniques that I can relate to Vedanta but the aim is Taoist.
Top   #54
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Always Wondering  Always Wondering is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
I am not into nostalgia at the moment, unless you are offering me a

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/photog...Bonneville.jpg

Here is an idea. It's a bout time you did some homework. How about YOU write a little paper on the subject and offer it up for OUR elucidation for a change ?

Here are some references to give you a kick start.

http://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox/i/ii/eqi02016.html

http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.p...c=2599.10;wap2

http://thelemite.tumblr.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text

Particularly this one; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Vedanta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelemic_mysticism
What? No Eight Lectures on Yoga?
Top   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418 View Post
The Christian Bible. The Hebrew Tanakh. The Islamic Koran.

In all three religions the aim is to surrender the individual will to the Will of God. If you want to know what that Will is, just look in the books themselves. There's a rule, a commandment, or an injuction from God or his priests for just about anything that might crop up in daily life. And if there isn't a direct rule, then there's always teaching by example. "What did Jesus do when X or Y happened?" The number of different laws and rules is truely mind boggling. Anyone who thinks the Hebrew Tanakh only conatins The 10 commandments, needs to take another look. [http://biblebabble.curbjaw.com/laws.htm] And lets not even start on what happens when one book of rules contradicts another book of rules. There have been too many wars fought over that one already.

Thelema has one rule. Do what thou wilt.


I concur. A lot of people misunderstand "Do what thou wilt" thinking it means do what you want. This isn't true. Do what thou wilt is your True Will; what you are destined to be in harmony with the universe. I think Crowley got a lot of bad rep by fundamentalist Christians who thought of that as something evil or maybe disregarding God to find ones True Will. I don't want to plagiarize Wikipedia so I'm trying to put it onto my own words. Don't get me wrong, I love the story of Jesus Christ. It's a very important parable. I just will never read the Bible because it has been re-written so many times in the course of 2 thousand years. It's like the worlds oldest game of telephone. No one will ever know what was really written in the Bible. That's why Aleister Crowley's first prints go for a lot. Rare and not edited. Thelema is fascinating really.
Top   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubycon View Post
I just will never read the Bible because it has been re-written so many times in the course of 2 thousand years. It's like the worlds oldest game of telephone. No one will ever know what was really written in the Bible.
Shame, you're missing out. It really is a very good book. Besides, everyone has read Greek and Roman myths, which are all handed down, modified and translated. Why should the Bible be treated any differently?
Top   #57
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Michael Sternbach  Michael Sternbach is offline
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Studying the Tarot and other esoteric sources makes me take out the Bible occasionally - it's replete with esoteric symbolism! Some of the apocryphs are very wortwhile, too, i.e. the Gospel of Thomas and the Book of Enoch.
Top   #58
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Richard  Richard is offline
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"Do what thou wilt" is a paraphrase of "Thy will be done," as in the Paternoster (Lord's Prayer), only it is addressed to one's personal Holy Guardian Angel, which can be thought of as the inner Christ, or Higher Self. It is the Real You, not some vaporous entity dwelling beyond the stars. The God concept needs to be revised, but it may take a few centuries for it to happen.
Top   #59
Rubycon  Rubycon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
Shame, you're missing out. It really is a very good book. Besides, everyone has read Greek and Roman myths, which are all handed down, modified and translated. Why should the Bible be treated any differently?


Good point. The way I see it is I am more interested in what its initial intent was. It's been passed down thousands of years and altered in the course of that time as well. Today's Bible teaches a parable, but I would rather know what was originally written in those scriptures. Don't laugh but I look at it like Wikipedia. "Controlling defining". If you think about it, in 100 years no one will have paper or physical knowledge anymore. It will all be on a database for anyone to alter and even deleted from existence. It's a scary thought but that's how I look at the Bible today. If you think about it, remember when the Teacher whispered a phrase into the first kids ear in School and they had to whisper it all around the classroom to the last student? What the Teacher said in the beginning was "The School Bus is Yellow", what the last kid says back to the teacher is "Unicorns are Real." That is just 20 people in the course of 10 minutes. One phrase altered, think about an entire book over 2000 years! That's just my thoughts though.
Top   #60


 



 


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