Conversation regarding the Guidelines for the Golden Dawn Tradition Sub-Forum

I would take it that the "hermetic system" mentioned by Solandia in the first post refers implicitly to the full, original name of the Golden Dawn - "The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn".

Thus the particular kind of hermeticism that this forum wants to address is the late 19th century synthesis of that *particular* hermetic order and its offshoots - which will of course span everything from the Cipher Manuscript and the rituals and teachings of the Order, to Crowley, Waite, Case and their direct descendants.

Ross

Scion said:

Actually, now that you mention it Rosanne, I'm a little confused why the Hermetic forum is under the Thoth.

The WS is no less Hermetic... and there are other Hermetic traditions that relate to the Golden Dawn material (Papus, Hall, Christian, Levi, etc)...

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Well I have to agree- for I imagine a Neoplatonic deck would have Hermetic thought at its core. Maybe if a spade is a spade and a club is a club- it should be called the Golden Dawn club. Then as Marion says "Hey man, everybody has to be somewhere."it would not be mistaken where that somewhere was.
~Rosanne

Ross we posted at the same time.
Thanks- that is what I thought it was or at least it appeared to be "The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn".sub forum.
I would hate to go off in a tangent and post stuff pre 1888- like stuff of Hermetic modern in 1666. No one else would like it either.
~Rosanne

I think so too Rosanne. It would be easy to include de Gébelin in the discussion, since Hermes=Thoth, but I think it has more to do with this particular synthesis than influences or simple moralities on the cards (de Gébelin). Etteilla made a new Book of Thoth (Hermes), but he didn't influence this tradition in any appreciable way (except for divinatory meanings).

The GD influence cannot be overestimated - it is the single and unique source of Tarot enthusiasm in the English speaking world. I think there is plenty to discuss, but a few basic textbooks, like "History of the Occult Tarot, 1870-1970", might be good to get everyone to have. Of course there are also a few resident experts on the GD tradition here... aren't there ?

Ross

Marion said:

It may come down to that (possibly apocryphal) Jim Morrison line: "Hey man, everybody has to be somewhere."

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Yep exactly. Th placement here was one of convenience within what was possible with the forum software. Solandia was able to put the subforum into Study Groups also, or RWS presumably, but given the close relationship to the Thoth subjects and the posters already active in this section I thought this would be a better location to start things up at. If the sub-fourm is unsuccessful then the contents are easily merged with the Thoth section, and if it is sucessful it can move somewhere else also. This is really a trial spot I s'pose.

The intent isn't to discuss any specific deck/s, but rather the tradition that the Thoth, RWS and GD decks are based on or share, starting with the GD. The idea of this new section was to remove the dependance on any individual deck or creator. Probably most of our conversations here will be similar to those already occuring in the Thoth section (hence they are neighbours) but without any need to relate the conversation specifically to the Thoth or Crowley (or for that matter similar discussion elsewhere on the RWS etc.). With that in mind virtually any deck is up for discussion, keeping in mind that what we're aiming to discuss is that which was made a part of the illustration in decks like the RWS, Thoth, GD, etc..

Ross G Caldwell said:

The GD influence cannot be overestimated - it is the single and unique source of Tarot enthusiasm in the English speaking world.

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My goal in suggesting this new sub-forum was to have a place to explore this seperate from other systems, as I felt this wasn't happening previously on AT. When reading discussions elsewhere on the boards on the various traditions incorporated into the GD and tangent decks, it seemed they conversations were getting lost in comparisions to other schools of thought. It's my hope that this forum gives us a place to explore this one infulential school of thought on its own merits, good and bad.

Roseanne said:

So this is a forum for Occult Tarot?

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Occult Tarot or something like that may be a better and less confusing name for the section. It was a name I just didn't think of, so didn't consider. In retorspect the word Hermetic may have strayed into the conversation as we were also looking at how far away from pure Tarot the section could go, without stepping into subjects better suited to the Spirituality forum. Does anyone have any comments on the name or further suggestions generally? I don't know but assume it not difficult for Solandia to change things.

This section was a personal want of mine, and reflects something I was wanting from AT and not finding. As a beginner in the area I hoped it would be useful for other beginners, and give some more freedom to the resident experts on what was available to discuss. Given my lack of expertise, the choices I made might need quite some tweaking or complete revising. I'd really like suggestions on how that can be done to make the forum more helpful for everyone.

Sim, you're exactly right. This area didn't really exist in any coherent way and everyune seems psyche dthat its here, it's just the language. Frankjly I like Hernetic Tarot as a title, because it situates us after Gebelin, but I do feel like it's going to get some leakaage from other Hermetic strands, which is great! The thing is that Occult Tarot is much more vague as a descriptor, so I actually prefer Hermetic.

My only question was why it fell under Thoth, and of course you're right, the folks who prowl the Thoth subforum are the ones most likely to populate these halls for a while. Maybe this is a good seedling spot and as it grows in a direction Solandia may need to move it somewhere else...

Scion said:

Maybe this is a good seedling spot and as it grows in a direction Solandia may need to move it somewhere else...

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That is my hope too. If the forum is popular enough to merits its own section, it won't need to be a sub-forum forever and can move on to bigger and better things. But if only a few are interested in the topic, then most of those few are already active in the Thoth, so this will provide a bit more flexibility I hope, and save a few conversations that died a fast death in other areas of the forum.

Thanks for the clarifications, similia.

I admit, when I first read "Hermetic Tarot", I thought it was focused on Godfrey Dowson's "The Hermetic Tarot". Nothing wrong with that, I have it and some good GD and related sources to discuss with it. But it wasn't, and after I read Solandia's introductory post, I thought I understood what it was about.

Thus the title seems fine to me now, but given my own initial confusion, and this discussion, it's clear it confuses others.

So, maybe, "Hermetic Tarot: The Golden Dawn Tradition"

or "The Golden Dawn tradition of Tarot".

That covers a lot, if you know what it means. But if not, it might seem a little limiting. But IME, most tarotists, except for the TdMophiles, are only aware of the GD tradition and its effects, whether they know it or not.

Ross

Ross G Caldwell said:

So, maybe, "Hermetic Tarot: The Golden Dawn Tradition"

or "The Golden Dawn tradition of Tarot".

That covers a lot, if you know what it means. But if not, it might seem a little limiting.

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You're a master of understatement, Ross.

I think a large part of the problem is that, on the surface, most of the Golden Dawn system seems to have absolutely nothing to do with Tarot. It's only when you begin to see how the Golden Dawn viewed and used the Tarot that it begins to make sense. Tarot seen as an intiatory framework, rather than a simple oracle doesn't make a whole lot of sense to some people and I'm not surprised.

Ross G Caldwell said:

I admit, when I first read "Hermetic Tarot", I thought it was focused on Godfrey Dowson's "The Hermetic Tarot".

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Yes of course. I tried to avoid using the words "Golden Dawn" or "Magickal" for those same reasons, though of course all such common words have been used to name some tarot somewhere. I think it would be a good idea to bounce some more names around and see how people feel about each of them, and how they would color the way we see this section. Any name we choose will confuse some people. Hopefully it will be clearer as the forum becomes established and the name won't matter so much.

Aeon418 said:

Tarot seen as an intiatory framework, rather than a simple oracle doesn't make a whole lot of sense to some people and I'm not surprised.

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Exactly. Part of our debate on what the subject matter in this forum would be, was how far away from relating the information to the tarot as generally understood could/should we go? While for someone very familar with the tradition it seems logical to have a conversation where the word tarot it not even mentioned, for others that is very confusing. I guess there are similar overlaps elsewhere on AT with other decks and traditions. So this forum will be open to discussions that previously occured in Spirituality, hence the mention in the guidelines.

Thanks everyone for your feedback on this. This is very useful to me to flesh this out and hopefully to others also.