Source of minors meanings?

Zephyros

Makes me wonder if the hundreds of artists that have cloned th RWS, and used it as a model for their decks are aware of all this information, or if they have just blindly followed suit (pun intended)

No need to wonder, the vast majority don't even think of a tenth of what ravenest wrote. I love Aeclectic but even (especially!) here, except for in a few select forums, esotericism is practically seen as an affront to the happy-hippy associative (read: derivative) "intuitive" method. Time and overuse have done their best to try to strip the RWS of esoteric significance. The barbarians are at the gates of Rome. ;)

René Descartes said:
I intuit, therefore I am always right

I'm also curious if the old world interpretations of the pips, as in the TDM, also where added to this soup, like bay leaf and thyme....

I'm not sure I understand the question. What was added to what what?
 

BSwett

I'm not sure I understand the question. What was added to what what?

Well, from what I've seen, the RWS pip meanings most often differ significantly from the old Marseille pip interpretations. So the question is: Did Pamela Smith and Arthur Waite (and their sources) take those views into consideration?
 

BSwett

found this on a different thread:


From a historical perspective it of course depends on which deck you are talking about. But if we assume your asking about the RWS deck, then it gets much of its meaning from the Golden Dawn system, as does the Thoth and most modern decks. They have a fairly simple mathematical formula that determines the attributes of any card, from an astrological, elemental, qabalaistic approach. These all get added up together and you get the meaning of the card.

Duquette gives a specific formula for this in his book on Crowley's Thoth.

(n of s) + (p in ZS) = sc

(Number of Suit) + (Planet in Zodiac Sign) = Small card.

As an example for the 2 of wands.

(2 of Fire) + (Mars in Aries) = Lord of Dominion.

2 = Chokmah, duality, impulse and also conception or the beginning of something.
Fire = bursting, creative, firey, passionate, heated, expansive, contagious etc.
Mars = aggresive, male, forceful, harsh, direct, active, etc.
Aries = beginning, spring, firey male energy, masculine, fertile, etc.

Mix these all up, and you get the bossy, domineering, king of the world, 2 of Wands. This gets illustrated in various decks in different ways. But most modern decks, regardless of how they are illustrated or the method, have this as the common denominator at the core.

From a personal perspective, well thats a whole different matter. I'd say the answers more simple "from using them". :)

Lots of info and perspectives in that forum post. If anyone else ends up here looking for answers, i suggest checking this out as well:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=96159
 

Teheuti

Well, from what I've seen, the RWS pip meanings most often differ significantly from the old Marseille pip interpretations. So the question is: Did Pamela Smith and Arthur Waite (and their sources) take those views into consideration?
First, which old Marseille pip interpretations do you mean?

If you are talking about Etteilla, who was the first to write down meanings for the Tarot pips, then yes, Waite took Etteilla's meanings very seriously. But he also used other traditional French and English cartomancy meanings like those written down by Robert Chambers (in his Book of Days) that Waite had earlier published in his own book on divination (written as Grand Orient). Waite and Smith clearly synthesized together all these materials, including the GD correspondences (of which Smith would have been unaware).

Additionally, Waite had Smith illustrate a series of four "stories" that give a certain cohesion to each suit. Two of the stories are exact and pretty conclusive: one even has similar illustrations that Waite would have known. These lend credence to the other two that are a little less precise.

Waite gives all his Tarot sources in the back of PKT - even if he seems scornful of them - which was both his habitual manner with the work of others and fairly common in the day, when it was considered appropriate to demonstrate that your worked outstrips everything done by others. [Even today publishers require prospective authors to list all competing works and state why their own book is better than these others - this just doesn't get out to the general public.]

Plus, Waite had Smith use additional symbolism in certain cards that were significance in his other writings on "The Secret Tradition."
 

BSwett

First, which old Marseille pip interpretations do you mean?

If you are talking about Etteilla, who was the first to write down meanings for the Tarot pips, then yes, Waite took Etteilla's meanings very seriously. But he also used other traditional French and English cartomancy meanings like those written down by Robert Chambers (in his Book of Days) that Waite had earlier published in his own book on divination (written as Grand Orient). Waite and Smith clearly synthesized together all these materials, including the GD correspondences (of which Smith would have been unaware).

Additionally, Waite had Smith illustrate a series of four "stories" that give a certain cohesion to each suit. Two of the stories are exact and pretty conclusive: one even has similar illustrations that Waite would have known. These lend credence to the other two that are a little less precise.

Waite gives all his Tarot sources in the back of PKT - even if he seems scornful of them - which was both his habitual manner with the work of others and fairly common in the day, when it was considered appropriate to demonstrate that your worked outstrips everything done by others. [Even today publishers require prospective authors to list all competing works and state why their own book is better than these others - this just doesn't get out to the general public.]

Plus, Waite had Smith use additional symbolism in certain cards that were significance in his other writings on "The Secret Tradition."

First of all, Teheuti, very honored to have you join this table. Can i get you a cup of tea or something?

The Marseille minors interpretations i'm referring to that i've felt differ from the RWS meanings are the simple ones that I've gathered from a couple of LWB's. Those and some others i've found online.
Like I mentioned at the start of this thread, I'm fairly new to the world of the minor Arcana. I've spent quite a bit of time studying the RWS pictorial pip meanings in the past few months and I'm doing pretty good, i think. Now, I'd love to be able to apply this knowledge to my readings using the TdM but because of those discrepancies i've found, i believe it's not that simple. I guess my next step is to get a good book that leans more on Marseille rather Waite...

This could be turning into a different topic, but all those streams feed the same lake…


Thanks for your words!
B.
 

Teheuti

Am drinking my Earl Grey as I write.

If you want to know where Waite's meanings and Smith's images for the Minors come from you need to look at the sources that they are known to have used or were very likely to use. Modern LWBs are often modernized ideas or made up by that author. Oh yes, and Paul Christian's ideas were influential, too, although more on the Majors than the Minors. I believe the Church of Light (many of the Egyptian-styled decks) meanings for the Minors descend more directly from Paul Christian. But that is its own lineage.
 

ravenest

How did I end up here? That was a surprise!!!
RWS forum? Whatever ... anyway to carry on:

I am not familiar with the decks earlier than the ones I mentioned previously. But as well as a collective accrument of imagery and ideas through the decans I assume that happened in another way through the minors and the older decks. That is a 'modern' deck would partially utalise the meaning and image of earlier minors.

I am not a tarot historian ... perhaps one of those might have info on the emergence of the first meanings or images of the minors and that could be cross referenced to whatever version of the decans was current at that time?
 

ravenest

But DuQuettes formular makes that same mistake.
It should be
Number (sephiroth) x World (Suit) x Decan and (possibly) x 'astology' = minor.

Mars at the top of the card and Aries at the bottom indicates the first decan ( 1/36), the first decan of Aries. It is associated with Mars due to the system of annoting the decans in order of the signs and an order of the planets.

Some images of the first decan:

• Ibn Ezra: A head in the form of a dog with a candle in its left hand and a key in its right hand. Banbakha says it is a Moor; his eyes are black, and his eyebrows are stright, and he is of the giants’ race. He is self-laudatory and is wrapped in a large white cloak with a rope girdle on it; he is irascible and stands on his feet.
• Picatrix: The form of a black man, restless and great in body having red eyes and holding a cutting axe in his hand, girded about with white garment; and there is great worth in this face. And this is a face of strength, high rank, and wealth without difference.
• Agrippa: A black man, standing and clothed in a white garment, girdled about, of a great body, with reddish eyes, and great strength, and like one that is angry; and this image signifieth and causeth boldness, fortitude, loftiness, and shamelessness.

Now we might be able to sum this up by just saying Mars. The images are Martial. [Ibn Ezra's is interesting ... I get a near Eqyptian image a dog headed man holding a key (ankh)?]

Some might think I am splitting hairs here - and I am, but it leads to other issues.

If the GD system influences RW and Thoth then we should use the GD astro system and that is a sidereal system. If one says Mars in Aries most unconsiously convert to western tropical astrology. No problem yet. But if you are going to pick a court based on someones astrology and are going off their natal western tropical astrology then you will be making a peanut butter sandwich with vegamite.

I know ... I know .... most of you wont care. In that case just believe what DuQuette says , he does have a book out after all ;)

But its out there ... this idea of interpreting it into a modern astrological concept, and as I said Crowley seemed to have supported it in the Book of Thoth. I suppose it is because it is assumed that if a decan is attributed to a planet ( actually its the other way around I think) it has the same energy as the planet ... but not reallly as they would just be planets in the first place and there would be no need for a decan attribution; there are 36 decans and only 7 planets so .....

This is all getting back to 'ancient' astrology and all linked to the idea of stars and 'star beings' or stella gods and their infuence on us and earthly affairs ... but I have been severly dissed in astro forum in the past for suggesting something as ludicrous as the concept that astrology has to do with the stars :bugeyed:

Eventually we may be able to trace it back to significant asterisms. recently much new research has been done on the decans and finally concensus is moving towards sensible realistic ideas (at last!) e.g. it is becoming generally accepted that Egyptian decans need not have been on the same latitude and way off the ecliptic (well of course - go and watch them rise one night!)

Also eventually we might be able to identify what they were and get back to a more reasonible esoteric astrology .... and a whole new range of tarot decks? ... ?
 

ravenest

I know it's almost rude to ask for this, but it would be really interesting to have a light example of this collage of ideas. Like taking a minor card and deconstructing its meaning; reverse engineering it's symbolism....
I guess this could be my homework...

Look at the images above for the 1st decan (decan 1 of Aries), combine with the concepts of the number 2 and Chokmah and wands and the first world, prepare a palette with the appropriate colour scale colours, mix up with your own philosophy and take on the mysteries add a dash (or more) of artistic license and off you go.

Makes me wonder if the hundreds of artists that have cloned th RWS, and used it as a model for their decks are aware of all this information, or if they have just blindly followed suit (pun intended)

Or just do it that way ;)
I'm also curious if the old world interpretations of the pips, as in the TDM, also where added to this soup, like bay leaf and thyme....

Prob.