Not a Golden Dawn deck

Fulgour

Please also (while comparing divinatory meanings)
look at the descriptions given as required for the
proper imagery by the Golden Dawn. It's specific!

The Colman Smith Tarot is very unlike the HOGD.
 

Rusty Neon

Fulgour said:
Please also (while comparing divinatory meanings)
look at the descriptions given as required for the
proper imagery by the Golden Dawn. It's specific!

The Colman Smith Tarot is very unlike the HOGD.
Click to expand...

Yes, if you require more than correspondence between HOGD Book T divinatory meanings and the divinatory meanings discernable by the Rider deck minor arcana imagery (i.e., if you require that the Rider deck images meet the descriptions - and not just the divinatory meanings - in HOGD Book T, e.g., a hand holding wands for each card of the Wands pips per HOGD Book T), then I agree with you that the Rider deck is, in that sense, not a Golden Dawn deck.
 

truelighth

Fulgour said:
The Colman Smith Tarot of 1909 was followed by a small book,
first published without pictures in 1910, with pictures in 1911.

The small book was by A.E.Waite and in it he claimed to be the
genius mastermind behind Pamela Colman Smith's Tarot deck.
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Actually, the first known publication from 1909 of the deck DID come with the small book from A.E. Waite. So the Key was not published later, as you are suggesting. And I know this for sure, because I own a copy.

The cards of this 1909 edition were thicker and the backs have the blue roses and lilies pattern instead of the dried mud/crackled back of later editions. And the deck came in a red box with the non-illustrated Key.
 

Fulgour

truelighth said:
Actually, the first known publication from 1909 of the deck DID come with the small book from A.E. Waite. So the Key was not published later, as you are suggesting. And I know this for sure, because I own a copy.
Click to expand...
The 1909 deck was accompanied in 1910 by such a book,
though Rider & Co first offered only the deck, and the next
year the book, then both of them together to help sales. :)
Pictures were added later, though the price was the same.
 

Lillie

Rusty Neon said:
In my opinion, if one takes a look at the Golden Dawn's Book T divinatory meanings and School of Etteilla divinatory meanings, one can see many parallels between those sets of divinatory meanings and the divinatory meanings reasonably discernable in the Rider deck minor arcana imagery and/or listed in Waite's PKT. Compare also the Rider deck's court card imagery with that of the court cards in the Golden Dawn decks (e.g., Cicero and Wang decks).
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Oddly enough I got Wang's 'Intro to the GD Tarot' Today. I read it, so it is pretty fresh in my mind.
In one part Wang mentions the Waite courts, and particullarly mentions how they deviate from the GD pattern of knight, Queen, Prince and Princess.
He reckons Waite did this deliberatly to conceal the true GD associations.
 

Rusty Neon

Lillie said:
Oddly enough I got Wang's 'Intro to the GD Tarot' Today. I read it, so it is pretty fresh in my mind.
In one part Wang mentions the Waite courts, and particullarly mentions how they deviate from the GD pattern of knight, Queen, Prince and Princess.
He reckons Waite did this deliberatly to conceal the true GD associations.
Click to expand...

Yes, as an example of such deliberate concealment, it's interesting to compare the Wang [GD] deck's Queen of Cups with the Rider deck's Queen of Cups.
 

Lillie

Well, I only have the university books RWS, and I only have the Wang deck as b/w pics in a book. But there is enough there for a comparison.Appart from the fact that they both show seated women, by water, holding a cup, they have very little in common.

Wang. Cray fish in cup, big bird (ibis) beside her and on her clothes, armour, flower in her hand, lotuses in the water.

Waite. None of the above, some mermaidy kids on the throne.

Very different from what I can see. Or do you see it differently? Can you see correspondances that I am missing?
 

truelighth

Fulgour said:
The 1909 deck was accompanied in 1910 by such a book,
though Rider & Co first offered only the deck, and the next
year the book, then both of them together to help sales. :)
Click to expand...


I don't know where you got your information from, but my 1909 deck came with the Key to the Tarot. And so did the one that Stuart Kaplan currently possesses. The deck was not offered on it's own first, but together with the book in a different and much thicker print run. The single decks were published later.
 

Fulgour

truelighth said:
I don't know where you got your information from, but my 1909 deck came with the Key to the Tarot. And so did the one that Stuart Kaplan currently possesses. The deck was not offered on it's own first, but together with the book in a different and much thicker print run. The single decks were published later.
Click to expand...
I would be happy to agree with you, but what can I say?

You know, if it was me making the same claims as you,
some people would be more than happy to "disagree" :)
 

Rosanne

Did Waite use another deck for himself? I can not see why he would conceal his beliefs to an Artist whom he was guiding. For what purpose? To be superior in secret? It is all a little odd to my mind. The Lovers is another one that is vastly different. So can I take it that Golden Dawn Tarot is Honest and open tho' occult; Waite is dishonest and closed and secretly occult? Or have I got Poo Bears little mind?
 
Judgement The trumps as sentence