Not a Golden Dawn deck

This is for educational reading, perhaps opinions can be formed

The two articles I was interested in that might have bearing on this subject:

A challenge:
The Tarot Cards by J.W. Brodie-Innes, from the periodical
"The Occult Review"; Vol. XXIX, No. 2; Feb., 1919

The response:
The Tarot and Secret Tradition from the periodical "The Occult Review"
Vol. XXIX, No. 3; March, 1919.

(Arthur Edward Waite wrote the second article--samples of other of AE Waite's articles are also included in this link, but I thought these two might illuminate our discussion.

http://www.adepti.com/adepti.orig/fourth.html

It may not be that Waite was being deliberately obtuse. It may be that as someone of his age and time, we can view him as someone able to soak in a great deal. He may have been good as a literal translator of other languages and if you could get him to focus, maybe brilliant for his time..

But over time, we might be judging him unfairly from our more modern views as not the best guide, writer or teacher to people of different knowledge bases and backgrounds.

I did find an interesting sidenote to looking at Waite's information--those now historic twentieth-to-twenti-first century writers such as Gareth Knight (G.K. Tarot), Judith Sharman Burke (Sharman Caselli Tarot), Caitlin and John Matthews (Arthurian) and Philip & Stephanie Carr-Gomm (Druidcraft) have developed very interesting tarot variants that touch upon the Grail or astrological tradition ideas that might have started from the Waitish-Colman-Smith tarot.

Maybe the RWS deck design should be considered the 'beginning' of something else, such as the Anglo-English School of Tarot, rather than the end product of a Continental Tarots. In writing tarot reviews, we write of tarots following a Marseilles-Milanese-Continental or French school where

1) Justice is Eight, Strength is 11
2) Pips are not full pictures

or RWS, where

1) Justice is 11, Strength is 8
2) Pips are full pictures, may contain human figures.

Best wishes

Cerulean

Merry Muses

Cerulean said:

...and if you could get him to focus, maybe brilliant for his time.. But over time, we might be judging him unfairly from our more modern views as not the best guide, writer or teacher to people of different knowledge bases and backgrounds.

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This argument, however well intended, misses the point
that in his own time Waite was considered to be obscure.

Good authors tend to improve with age, as you well know,
and making excuses for mediocrity doesn't retrofit quality.

Hello Fulgour, I was editing my post...

Yes, of course you make a good point.

My opinions may or may not have missed your point of the thread in more ways than one! Forgive that I was trying to develop a thought and suggestion--I saw your answer after I was editing my original post--hopefully my thoughts are more clear.

I am hoping my thoughts were on topic.

My best wishes,

Cerulean

P.S. An ironic obituary:

Waite died in 1942 and was accorded a brief, three-paragraph obituary in The Freemasons' Chronicle (vol. 135, p. 178, 6 June 1942) in which he was characterized as a poet and writer on Freemasonry. There was no attempt to appraise his work or to state his primary thesis. He was buried in the churchyard at Bishopsbourne in Kent where he spent most of his later years, and his grave is now obscured by a thick growth of deadly nightshade — an appropriate parallel to the blight that has fallen on his reputation.

His besetting faults were a conscious refusal to accept his limitations as a historian, limitations that were inevitable, given his lack of academic training — and the sub-conscious recognition of them that led to an inordinate conceit and to constant belittling of his predecessors. Serious though these faults are they are not serious enough to deny him a place amongst the foremost masonic scholars. Indeed, he was, and is still, the only such scholar to have attempted to unite the outward history of the higher degrees with their inward spirituality. The danger of such an attempt is that of falling into the follies of occultism, but Waite avoided that danger, as Fort Newton had observed in 1916: 'Brother Waite warns us against the dark alleys that lead nowhere, and the false lights that lure to ruin, and he protests against those who would open the Pandora's Box of the Occult on the altar of Masonry. After a long study of occultism, magic, omens, talismans and the like, he has come to draw a sharp line between the occult and the mystical, and therein he is wise' 114 .. We too, perhaps, would be wise if we did him the courtesy of studying his work and recognizing its peculiar genius.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/waite/waite.html

Dear Cerulean

Cerulean said:

My opinions may or may not have missed your point of the thread in more ways than one! Forgive that I was trying to develop a thought and suggestion--I saw your answer after I was editing my original post--hopefully my thoughts are more clear.

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Your thoughts and compositions are always a welcome highlight.
My apologies! I had not meant to interrupt you, in media res...

*

In media res: "In the middle things" refers to the literary technique of
beginning a narrative in them middle of, or at a late point in, the story,
after much action has already taken place. Examples include the Iliad,
the Odyssey, and Paradise Lost.

Fulgour said:

I've just been sent a copy of the Ebay page from SEP-08-03
with what is very likely the deck to which you are referring.
The book does have 1910 but yes perhaps it was fore dated.
What did you ever make of the handwritten notes included?

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That is indeed the deck I am referring to. The auction does state that the book is dates in 1910 and it is. I guess it has to be pre-dated. When I stated this deck comes from 1909, I am using the studies of Frank Jensen on the subject. I know Holly wrote quite a bit about the first deck (the one Stuart Kaplan won) on her site.

The handwritten notes are more like personal study notes. Probably from the one who owned the deck, possibly Margaret. There wasn't really much new or revealing in there.

Vincent said:

If as you say, the PKT doesn't correspond with the illustrations for some cards, then what conclusions can we reasonably draw from that piece of evidence?

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I don't know if you can consider it evidence. I was more stating my personal opinion on the subject of the differences between the majors and minors.

Vincent said:

It is certainly possible, but what evidence is there to substantiate that rumour, and what evidence, if any, is there to indicate the rumour is false?

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Unfortunally it is just a rumour. I don't think there has been any evidence found to prove it to be true or false. Except maybe the deck itself.

Vincent said:

The GD was where Waite learnt about Tarot, and a huge amount of the symbolism derives from the Order. The artist and the author were both members of the Order, and at the time Waite was running an offshoot of the Order. It really is no surprise that the main influence on the deck is, the Golden Dawn.

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That makes more sense than to argue that there is no connection.
Still doesn't explain the jumbled symbolism that appears to have no thread - and which Waite's writings make even more obscure. But if GD precepts were secret, we're not likely to know, are we? Or did someone else break the code?

Breaking the Code

What then was the main influence on the golden-dawn?
do they (whoever they were) get credit for everything:
The Colours of Mystery & The Numbers of the Unknown,
Snakes, Lions, Stars, Circles, ETC..? That makes sense!

Oswald Wirth was surely The #1 Primary Inspiration here,
because of his courageous amplification of the 22 Majors,
Colman Smith took the initiative and did all 56 Minors too.

Actually I'm going to look for or open another thread...

...because I am interested in what Levy and Wirth are known for in terms of the majors and what others think...Thanks for your comment, Fulgour.

"Oswald Wirth was surely The #1 Primary Inspiration here,
because of his courageous amplification of the 22 Majors"

Regards,

Cerulean