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Question Elemental Associations - Keep or Throw Away?


Grab a cup of coffee or a beverage and make sure you go to the restroom first cause this is gonna be a longgggggggg post.....

I've had a very interesting 24+ hours. It's either been really productive or it's really been unproductive. I'm not sure which.

I applied the Seven Stations Layout to both the Mythic Tarot and Navigators Tarot of the Mystic SEA. On first (second, third and fourth too!) glance neither of them seemed to fit. The Taurus in me refused to believe that the Seven Stations only works on Golden-Dawn based decks. So I spent some time going through my collection (300+) of tarot decks to find ones that have either reordered the Majors or changed the elemental associations of the Majors.

I have a number of decks that fit that criteria. But going through the LWBs and companion books for them, none of them mentioned anything about the elemental associations of the Majors, although most of them talked about elemental associations for the Courts.

Then I had my Tower moment (Epiphany on the Outer Path) - if the cards have been reordered, they don't follow the Golden Dawn numbering, so GD elemental associations probably shouldn't be applied to them! I was tired by that point, so I went to bed.

I've spent most of today working on the Seven Stations, still refusing to believe that it's only relevant for GD-based decks. Something just rubs me the wrong way about that.

I spent a couple of hours reading through both the companion book and workbook for the Mythic Tarot in the hopes that there was some kind of elemental association info hidden between the lines. I was able to relate the EA of the Court cards to 12 of the Major Arcana, but that didn't do me a whole lot of good cause I was still missing 10 cards. Then I searched the net for any info I could find about EA in that deck. Finally, I started a thread here on AT. So far I've gotten 22 views and no answers....

Even I get tired of banging my head against a brick wall after awhile, so I decided to switch gears and see how decks with more than 22 Majors faired with the Seven Stations. That's when things really started to get interesting.

I own both de Tarot in de Herstelde Orde and The Complete New Tarot. The former is an 80 card Tarot deck and the latter is a companion book. Both are by the Dutch brothers Onno and Rob Docters van Leeuwen. The basic premise to their works is that Jupiter and Juno (Truth and Intuition) were removed from the Tarot deck by the Church and have been folded into/obscured by the High Priestess and High Priest/Hierophant (which removes truth and intuition from the realm of everyday folk and puts them squarely under the control of the Church). They also postulate that the two missing cards ARE included in most Tarot decks as a title card and a blank or other info card.

The book is 464 pages long. And as I'm thumbing through it to find the elemental associations of the Majors (in addition to adding Truth and Intuition back into the Majors as + and - instead of numbers, the Majors are also reordered), I come across an interesting diagram called the Chain. Basically, it's a method for remembering the order of the Majors, which apparently weren't numbered until sometime around the first Marseilles decks. What caught my eye was that the cards are laid out similarly to the Seven Stations! Whereas the Seven Stations are laid out like this:

.....3...6...9..12..15..18..21
0...2...5...8..11..14..17..20
.....1...4...7..10..13..16..19

The Chain is laid out like this:

....2....-....7...10...13...+....18...21
0.....3....5....8...11...14...16...19
....1....4....6....9...12...15...17...20

While the three working titles of the Seven Stations paths from bottom to top are Outer Path, Inner Path and Hidden Path, the corresponding titles of the Chain paths are Material Path (worldly archetypes), Mediating Path (situations of choice, rule or mediation) and Spiritual Path (highly abstract, spiritual principles).

So I look at the elemental associations of the Restored Tarot in the Chain layout and discover something rather interesting (bizarre?) - the Majors have been reordered so that all the cards of the same element are together! Since there are 24 Majors and four elements, that leaves 6 Majors per element. Well, there are 3 paths, so there are two of each element in each path. SO ALL THREE PATHS ARE ELEMENTALLY NEUTRAL! You've got to be f-ing kidding me!!!!! None of the paths are active or passive, but all of them are neutral?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I go no further with the Restored Tarot, but I DO pursue The Chain Layout. The first thing I do is apply it to the Seven Stations. And something very interesting happens. The Inner Path of the Seven Stations becomes the Spiritual Path of The Chain and the Hidden Path of the Seven Stations becomes the Mediating Path of the Chain. That can't work, can it? Well, elementally it sucks. The bottom path is the same between both systems. The middle path of the Chain has 6 passive elements and only 1 active element (if you count the Fool, it becomes 2 active elements). The upper path of the Chain now becomes active. My head hurts at this point.

One good thing I realize though is that dangerdork's station appellations fit rather well over the columns of the Chain layout (as long as you're only dealing with 22 cards). For example, Origin still applies to the first three cards in the layout. But instead of applying to Outer, Inner, Hidden as they do in the Seven Stations layout, they apply to Material, Spiritual, Mediating. The same is true for the other six station names.

So then I apply the Chain to both the Mythic Tarot and the Navigators Tarot. Elementally, the Mythic reads Active, Passive, Active from bottom to top while the Navigators reads Passive, Active, Active. NONE of the four Chain layouts that I've tried are acting as I expected in terms of Active/Passive. Do I throw out the Chain Layout or do I throw out the elemental associations Well, let's put both layouts to the test.

Using the Robin Wood Tarot and the Seven Stations Layout, I came up with the following:

Outer Path
You are now able to control your surroundings (Magician). This inspires you to become a powerful leader (Emperor) whose power is the ability to control conflict (Chariot). An unexpected change of circumstances brings you to a turning point (Wheel of Fortune). An ending transforms you (Death). You reach an epiphany when the façade you present to others is torn down (Tower). But you’re destined to find success in the form of material happiness (Sun).

Inner Path
You yearn for spiritual fulfillment (High Priestess). This yearning inspires you to seek out organized religion (Hierophant). But your power is that you eventually realize that what you seek is within you (Strength). You reach a turning point when you learn the importance of fairness (Justice). You are transformed when you realize that moderation is the key (Temperance). Your faith and hope bring you an epiphany (Star). Your destiny is success in the form of being reborn (Judgement).

Hidden Path
You realize you have a capacity to nurture (Empress). This inspires the choices you make (Lovers). Your power is your ability to look inward to find your true self (Hermit). Your turning point comes when you change your perspective (Hanged Man). Once you free yourself of those things that keep you bound, you are transformed (Devil). Your epiphany is that you must stay on your new path in order to reach your goal (Moon). Your destiny is success in the form of completion (World).

That seems to work for me. So then I used the Robin Wood Tarot with the Chain Layout:

The Material Path
By learning to control your surroundings (Magician), you are inspired to rule over them (Emperor). Your power comes from your ability to handle conflict (Chariot). The vicissitudes of fate (Wheel of Fortune) provide you with your turning point. Your transformation comes from an ending that leads to a new beginning (Death). You experience an epiphany when your hidden side is exposed for all to see (Tower). But your destiny is success in the form of material happiness (Sun).

The Mediating Path
By nurturing others (Empress), you are inspired to choose a mate (Lovers). Your power comes from your ability to illuminate what is hidden (Hermit). Your turning point comes when you are faced with a situation that causes you to reassess your position (Hanged Man). Your transformation comes when you realize what’s been holding you back (Devil). Your epiphany comes from delving into your unconscious (Moon). Your destiny is success in the form of the completion that you’ve been seeking (World).

The Spiritual Path
When confronted with mystical knowledge (High Priestess), you are inspired to seek the conformity of organized religion (Hierophant). But your power is your moral strength and courage (Strength). You reach a turning point when you realize that there needs to be a balance between the mystical and the organized (Justice). Your transformation comes as you find the right mixture of the two for you (Temperance). Your new-found (personal) faith brings you an epiphany (Star). Your destiny is success in the form of a spiritual awakening and revitalization (Judgement).

Hey! That works for me too! Maybe, as I suggested in an earlier post, all of the Majors should be able to interact with each other on any of the paths and it should still make sense? Well, there's one way to find out if that's true. Last night I posted that the Mythic Tarot with its reordered Majors didn't fit into the Seven Stations Layout. Well, let's see how it fits with the Chain Layout:

The Material Path
You are presented with unexplored possibilities and are given the tools you need to complete the journey (Magician). Your inspiration comes from looking into your unconscious for your true purpose (High Priestess). Your power comes from learning how to handle contradictions and conflicts (Chariot). Your turning point comes when you overcome your own ego (Strength). Your transformation comes when you relinquish control and gain a new outlook (Hanged Man). Your epiphany comes when you come face to face with your true nature (Tower). Your destiny is success in the form of wisdom (Sun).

The Mediating Path
You are challenged to formulate your ideas and ethics (Emperor). Your inspiration comes from the knowledge that by having the ability to choose, one has free will (Lovers). Your power comes from your ability to produce cooperation and harmony (Temperance). Your turning point comes from an encounter that moves you toward your destiny (Wheel of Fortune). By confronting the negative sides of your personality (Devil), you are transformed. Your epiphany comes after a period of confusion and uncertainty (Moon). Your destiny is success in the form of integration and wholeness (World).

The Spiritual Path
You realize that you must be patient and wait until the time is right before you can act (Empress). You are inspired to search for your individual spiritual law by getting in touch with your inner priest (Hierophant). Your power comes from your knack for balanced thought and impartial decision-making (Justice). Your turning point comes when you accept the lessons of time and the limitations of mortal life (Hermit). You experience a transformation when you understand that without endings there can be no new beginnings (Death). You have an epiphany when you realize that no matter how much bad there is, you still have hope and faith (Star). Your destiny is success in the form of being able to see the extent to which you have been true to yourself (Judgement).

Well, that works for me. Last night the Mythic didn't work with the Seven Stations. Did it work today? Here's what I came up with using the divinitory meanings from the Mythic Tarot:

Outer Path
You begin with multiple possibilities and the tools needed to make those possibilities manifest (Magician). Your inspiration is hidden within your unconscious (High Priestess). Your power comes from your ability to overcome conflict and struggle (Chariot). Your turning point occurs when you overcome your own ego (Strength). This leads to your transformation where you relinquish control and get a new outlook on life (Hanged Man). Your epiphany comes when your true nature is revealed for all to see (Tower). Your destiny is success in the form of wisdom (Sun).

Inner Path
You begin with a new appreciation for the body and the instincts (Empress). You are inspired to seek philosophical answers (Hierophant). Your power comes from your ability to make impartial assessments (Justice). Your turning point occurs when you retreat from the world to do some self assessments (Hermit). Once you realize that the path you’re currently on must come to an end, you are transformed (Death). When you understand that as long as there’s hope, there’s still a chance, you experience an epiphany (Star). Your destiny is success in the form of seeing the pattern formed by your past experiences (Judgement).

Hidden Path
You realize that you must consider where your ideologies are interfering with your life and growth (Emperor). You are inspired to look at the implications of the choices you’ve made (Lovers). Your power comes from your ability to find harmony and cooperation in every situation (Temperance). A sudden change in fortune ushers in a turning point for you (Wheel of Fortune). Once you confront your blocks and inhibitions and those things that you despise about yourself, you undergo a transformation (Devil). You reach an epiphany when you understand that the state of confusion and uncertainty you’re undergoing is actually a period of gestation and that you must be patient (Moon). Your destiny is success in the form of the integration of the opposites within your personality (World).

Maybe I'm just too darned agreeable today, but that makes sense to me too! So it looks like my answer is to ignore the elemental associations of the paths in both layouts. I can apply Elemental Dignities to the cards in SPREADS, but I don't need to worry about whether the paths in the layout are active or passive. I can live with that.

But what about the Seven Stations and the Chain? Are they siblings? Cousins? Sworn enemies? They both seem valid to me. YMMV though. Although I've done both the Seven Stations and the Chain layouts for the Navigators Tarot, I haven 't seen yet if the cards seem to flow in a logical manner. Hopefully I will get a chance to do that tomorrow. (I hadn't intended on spending all day on this, so all the things I didn't get done today will need to be done tomorrow. Then I'll have to do my regular Sunday chores. Then I can pit the Navigators Tarot against both the Seven Stations and the Chain.)

Rodney
Top   #121
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Navigators Tarot and Seven Stations


I'm within spitting distance of my bedtime, so this is gonna have to be brief....

I've applied both the Seven Stations and the Chain to the Navigators Tarot of the Mystic SEA. I'm gonna have to let what I wrote percolate for a day or two to see how I really feel about it.

Most tarot decks that have reordered some of the Majors still pretty much start with the Magician and end with the World/Universe (with the Fool unnumbered or numbered 0 or 22). This deck has completely reordered things. The deck starts with the Universe as the first path (the cards aren't actually numbered, so the numbering I use is the card's path on the Tree of Life, which the author has also rearranged from the traditional ToL....) and ends with the Magian (NOT Magician) as the 21st path. The Fool is the 22nd Path on the ToL. Not one of the cards in this deck has the same position as the correspondingly named card in a RWS deck. That makes for some interesting interpretations to say the least.

Whereas the Fool is a beginning and the Universe is an ending that leads to a new beginning in RWS-based decks, in this one, the Universe is the beginning and the Fool is an ending that leads to a new beginning.

So, tomorrow I will reread what I wrote for both the Seven Stations and the Chain in regards to the Navigators Tarot and then I'll make my final decision as to whether either system works with this deck.

I'm gonna channel dangerdork for a moment. I see that lots of people are looking at this thread. It has the most views of the non-Note threads, with more than twice the number of views as the number 2 thread out of the first 40 threads (I view 40 threads per page). There are a lot of ideas floating around and I know it takes some time to get comfortable with them. But please join us in posting your thoughts about the Seven Stations. Nothing's written in stone yet and the more input into the thread, the better the end result will be.

Time for me to go to bed....
Rodney
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dangerdork,

The attachments and links are a great resource. I like how you incorporated your studies of Joseph Campbell into your Seven Stations Layout with the assignment of minor suits to the dual Major paths, and assigning each path both a masculine and feminine suit. The Hegelian synthesis makes perfect sense too.

Also the right-side of the middle path has a New Testament feel and mirrors the feminine row similar to how Christ has been viewed by some as having Dionysian elements. The Temperance and Star are both Venusian in a sense. The left-side of the middle path has an Old Testament/Tora "the Law" feel and reflects the masculine row (though Christ has also been thought of as a Sun god). Strength ushers in the path of the matriarchal.

Another aspect of this layout is how the Moon is next to the World (Earth). Also the "epiphany" of each path is in the spirit of the path. Emotional, id-driven, types look to the moon for inspiration. Religious types see HOPE (the Star) for their salvation. Rational types receive their epiphanies, or insights, as lighting bolts to the crown or head.
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Navigators Tarot and Seven Stations


I've reread what I've written for the Navigators Tarot and I'm still not sure about it. The "stories" for each of the paths flow, but I don't know that I can say that the story actually fits the path. Still thinking on that one. But I still think the Mythic works with both the Seven Stations and the Chain.

Rodney
Top   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwcarter
I've applied both the Seven Stations and the Chain to the Navigators Tarot of the Mystic SEA. I'm gonna have to let what I wrote percolate for a day or two to see how I really feel about it.

Most tarot decks that have reordered some of the Majors still pretty much start with the Magician and end with the World/Universe (with the Fool unnumbered or numbered 0 or 22). This deck has completely reordered things. The deck starts with the Universe as the first path (the cards aren't actually numbered, so the numbering I use is the card's path on the Tree of Life, which the author has also rearranged from the traditional ToL....) and ends with the Magian (NOT Magician) as the 21st path. The Fool is the 22nd Path on the ToL. Not one of the cards in this deck has the same position as the correspondingly named card in a RWS deck. That makes for some interesting interpretations to say the least.

Whereas the Fool is a beginning and the Universe is an ending that leads to a new beginning in RWS-based decks, in this one, the Universe is the beginning and the Fool is an ending that leads to a new beginning.
Quoting myself is probably bad form, but it's the easiest way to put the overview of how the Majors in the Navigators Tarot are laid out. Below is what I came up with for both the Seven Stations and the Chain.

Seven Stations
The Outer Path
You are open to new experiences (Universe) and are inspired by your realization of your inner energy (Aeon). Your power is your ability to remain relaxed when faced with the unexpected (Death). When you look inward and begin to understand your psyche and motivations, you reach a turning point (Suspension). Your transformation occurs when you meet your complimentary self (Lovers). You experience an epiphany when you discover your potential and nurture it (Empress). Your destiny is to rise above your daily troubles and dwell on eternal matters (Hermit).

The Inner Path
By focusing on a particular objective (Sun), you are inspired to break out of your bondage (Devil). Your power is your ability to find the revelations you seek (Star). Your turning point comes when you are able to tear down the walls you’ve built and examine what is keeping you from achieving your dreams (Tower). Your transformation comes when you are able to set aside your ego and look for the deeper meaning in your current situation (Hierophant). You have an epiphany when you realize that by using ability with restraint, you control the situation (Emperor). Your destiny is to become illuminated (Arch Priestess).

Hidden Path
You begin by seeking gratification by the easiest methods (Moon). You are inspired when you realize that you must deny yourself the things that give you pleasure (Art). By forgiving yourself and freeing yourself from guilt, you discover your power (Destiny). Your turning point comes when you realize that you must turn your back on the material in order to step off the clock and attain eternal security (Fortune). By resolving conflicting issues within, you become transformed (Strength). You achieve an epiphany when you realize that you’re far greater than your ego can ever be (Chariot). Your destiny is enlightenment (Magian).

The Chain
The Material Path
Some major changes in your life start you down a new path (Universe). You are inspired by a new clarity that allows you to see things that you’ve missed before (Aeon). Your ability to handle change well is your power (Death). When you allow yourself to look inward and see what motivates your every move, you come to a turning point (Suspension). You are transformed by loving another (Lovers). A pregnancy brings an epiphany that you will soon be a parent and that your life will never be the same again (Empress). Your destiny is to live a frugal life, only surrounding yourself with essentials (Hermit).

The Mediating Path
You begin by being moody and unreliable (Moon). You are inspired to practice moderation in order to preserve your inner equilibrium (Art). Your improved ability to discern between right and wrong becomes your power (Destiny). You reach a turning point when you decide to turn your back on the material world (Fortune). Your transformation comes when you resolve the conflicting issues within your own personality, making you feel omnipotent and ready to conquer the world (Strength). You reach an epiphany when you realize that the fear that holds others back doesn’t hold you back because you listen to your inner voice (Chariot). Your destiny is to unite understanding with wisdom (Magian).

The Spiritual Path
You begin by looking to your dreams for guidance because you’re unable to interpret your own deepest wishes (Sun). Your inspiration comes from the realization that you need to come face to face with your dark side (Devil). Your power is your ability for self-reflection (Star). You come to a turning point when you realize that by understanding your repressions and bringing them into the light of day, you have greatly enhanced your willpower (Tower). Listening to the voice within allows you to experience a transformation (Hierophant). You reach an epiphany when you realize you have an inner vision and are able to control that which you have created (Emperor). Your destiny is to be reborn with new ideas that arise from your unconscious (Arch Priestess).

Having studied the Navigators Tarot for a number of months now, the meaning of each card makes sense and the paragraphs flow.

Especially since I discovered The Chain, which flips the top two paths from the Seven Stations Layout, I'm even more certain that any arrangement of the Majors SHOULD make sense whether the cards flow up, down, left, right, in a spiral or in any other manner you can think of. The key is finding out what the relationship should be between given cards.

And any given layout of the cards is as valuable as any other layout of the cards. While a given layout may give more information or a new insight into the cards, no particular layout is any better or worse than any other layout. In my mind the only way that cards 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 20 can be the Inner Path in the Seven Stations but be the Hidden Path in the Chain (and be two completely different paths instead of two different names for the same path) is if all the cards should be able to interact with each other in an almost unlimited number of ways (yes, I know the total number is 22 factored, but I don't care to know exactly what that number is ); otherwise, either the Chain or the Seven Stations has to be wrong and I don't believe either of them are. (If anyone else can tell me another way both layouts could take the same cards and use them completely differently without one of the layouts being wrong, please tell me.)

To provide an example of what I've tried to say above, the Mythic Tarot lays out the Majors as such:

..............0...............
1...2...3...4...5...6...7.
8...9..10.11..12.13..14
15.16.17.18..19.20..21

The first seven cards are the Body and represent powers and potencies, the next seven cards are the Mind and represent laws or agencies, and the last seven cards are the spirit and represent conditions or effects. New insights are discovered in the following manner - the power of the Magician (1) works through the laws of Justice (8) to modify the effects of the Devil (15). The same is done with the other 6 columns. The Navigators Tarot could be laid out that way to get those insights. And GD-based systems could be laid out that way.

And understanding the above insight into the interactions of those three cards is just as important as understanding the interactions laid out by the Seven Stations. I haven't put it to the test yet, but I would also think that decks with more than 22 Majors could also be laid out (with some modifications of course) in any of these layouts to get the insight(s) provided by the layout.

So that's another long post from me. Do people agree or disagree with my conclusions?

Rodney
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Just great... gee thanks


It is my own fault. Here I am off of work from tending bar and drinking a good ale and winding down before I get up for class in a few hours and I decided to take a quick look at the forum. Thanks a lot DD for posting a very intriquing post. It is all I can do not to get my tarot journal and jotting down notes, putting out the paths, and trying some spreads with a deck or two. At the very least my little pea-brain is running round and round with the ideas you expressed and connections between this and various things read here and there and so on and so forth and and and...

sheesh.. so much for slipping into quiet slumber.

Thank you for posting such a wonderful post. Please let us know any more epiphanies you get. This one was a gift. Thank you.
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Now I have tried it, and it does make sence!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sar
Now I have tried it, and it does make sence!
Hi Sar,

Just to verify which "it" you're talking about - you're talking about the Seven Stations Major Arcana layout with a GD/RWS-based deck? Which deck did you use?

From a PM, life has intruded upon dangerdork, interfering with his free time. Not to worry though. He assures me he'll be back soon putting out ideas faster than we mere mortals can comprehend them.

Rodney
Top   #128
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Oh crud, it's late and I'm too tired to read this thoroughly right now and get it, but I spent most of last summer studying Josepha Campbell and other sources of comparative mythology... now I am completely and irrevocably down the rabbit hole. There is no turning back now.

Edited for spelling
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I'm bumping this thread because I'm going back through it and going to see how it applies to the Ancient Egyptian Tarot. Hopefully those who have participated in this thread in the past will join in again (our dangerdork seems to be MIA around these parts) and those who've never seen it will take a gander and chime in.

I will post my deck-specific comments about this layout in the Study Group for the Ancient Egyptian Tarot.

Rodney
Top   #130




 


 


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