tmgrl2
You're welcome, dream mage....helps me, too, to have several links in one place...
Enjoy.
terri
Enjoy.
terri
Swords and Wands associations... a different turn on the subject.
The_Star
Swords = air
Swords and Wands are the two most problematic of the suits; especially the Swords.
In the Tarot, the Swords represent the mind. That 'device' that is inside of us that cleaves everything into the zillion 'things' (Man as the 'naming animal) when, in fact, the zillion named 'things' are all really components of 'The One'.
Wands represent dynamic action and are associated with (astrologically) Mars... the fiery planet of force.
Both Swords (thoughts) and Wands (action) move through the air, However, the firey element (dynamic action) belongs to the Wands. Thoughts (Swords) do not require dynamic action (e.g. reflection) and are best relegated to the air element.
Swords and Wands are the two most problematic of the suits; especially the Swords.
In the Tarot, the Swords represent the mind. That 'device' that is inside of us that cleaves everything into the zillion 'things' (Man as the 'naming animal) when, in fact, the zillion named 'things' are all really components of 'The One'.
Wands represent dynamic action and are associated with (astrologically) Mars... the fiery planet of force.
Both Swords (thoughts) and Wands (action) move through the air, However, the firey element (dynamic action) belongs to the Wands. Thoughts (Swords) do not require dynamic action (e.g. reflection) and are best relegated to the air element.
dream mage
"In the Tarot, the Swords represent the mind. That 'device' that is inside of us that cleaves everything into the zillion 'things' (Man as the 'naming animal) when, in fact, the zillion named 'things' are all really components of 'The One'. "
Alot of people think this way, and I'm not saying that they are wrong, but there are some different tarot decks (different than the RWS) that switch the correspondances around. Also, there are tarot decks that don't even use the same suits (faery tarot decks for example... one in particular uses acorns and leaves and such). My whole point of posting this thread was to initiate a differnt dialogue on the RWS.
I think, personally, that the tarot, even though RWS is one of the most revolutionary decks, is not limited to the RWS iconagraphy.
I had a thought that since the RWS deck was done with symbolism aimed at the subconscious, then is it possible that when someone like me who sees a greater connection with Swords to fire, could use that correspondance, rather than stick with the "intended" correspondance.
So basically, I just wanted other people's opinions, because hearing/reading other people's thoughts make me think harder, and shows me different angles I may not have seen, which helps me make a better more thought out decision.
Sorry for my rambling.. but thank you for your insight.
Alot of people think this way, and I'm not saying that they are wrong, but there are some different tarot decks (different than the RWS) that switch the correspondances around. Also, there are tarot decks that don't even use the same suits (faery tarot decks for example... one in particular uses acorns and leaves and such). My whole point of posting this thread was to initiate a differnt dialogue on the RWS.
I think, personally, that the tarot, even though RWS is one of the most revolutionary decks, is not limited to the RWS iconagraphy.
I had a thought that since the RWS deck was done with symbolism aimed at the subconscious, then is it possible that when someone like me who sees a greater connection with Swords to fire, could use that correspondance, rather than stick with the "intended" correspondance.
So basically, I just wanted other people's opinions, because hearing/reading other people's thoughts make me think harder, and shows me different angles I may not have seen, which helps me make a better more thought out decision.
Sorry for my rambling.. but thank you for your insight.
The_Star
Air and astrology
Investigating the strong association between The Tarot and astrology is very helpful in connecting the dots.
Many 'New Age' tarot decks lack the authenticity of accomplished adepts like A.E.Waite. These decks may be 'fun' but are devoid of the deeper teachings concealed in the RWS symbolism.
If you see a corresponcence between swords and fire it is YOUR subconscious that is revealing that to you about yourself. It does not mean that it is a universal truth.
The only accurate association of Wands (clubs) and Air is that wands move through the air (like a thrown rock). Thoughts are invisible, have no weight, and are associated with Air (Mercury in astrology).
Also, Wands have no association with 'mental focus' (mindset).
If you are advanced in meditation/contemplation techniques then you can contemplate and inkove the Ace of Swords and, at another time, the Ace of Wands and actually experience their archetypal differences.
A powerful enlightened idea can have a secondary association to fire, but that is the exception. Also, thoughts, like a sword, can have two 'edges' (the proverbial two edged sword) being either creative or destructive.
A Wand (club) has only one facet...an implement of force (fire/Mars/conflict).
dream mage said:
Investigating the strong association between The Tarot and astrology is very helpful in connecting the dots.
Many 'New Age' tarot decks lack the authenticity of accomplished adepts like A.E.Waite. These decks may be 'fun' but are devoid of the deeper teachings concealed in the RWS symbolism.
If you see a corresponcence between swords and fire it is YOUR subconscious that is revealing that to you about yourself. It does not mean that it is a universal truth.
The only accurate association of Wands (clubs) and Air is that wands move through the air (like a thrown rock). Thoughts are invisible, have no weight, and are associated with Air (Mercury in astrology).
Also, Wands have no association with 'mental focus' (mindset).
If you are advanced in meditation/contemplation techniques then you can contemplate and inkove the Ace of Swords and, at another time, the Ace of Wands and actually experience their archetypal differences.
A powerful enlightened idea can have a secondary association to fire, but that is the exception. Also, thoughts, like a sword, can have two 'edges' (the proverbial two edged sword) being either creative or destructive.
A Wand (club) has only one facet...an implement of force (fire/Mars/conflict).
ravenest
I like Wands, fire. Swords, air. But really sword is Mars and air is dagger. But that might start off something else.
I once had a very interesting debate about all this. I was working with the N.E. coast Pagan Forum and they decided to have a big festive spring Equinox (I think) and join the various traditions represented in an eclectic rite.
You can imagine what the results of that were? [The final results, ie, the rite itself were fantastic] I(from a hermetic ritual magicians background) ended up being voted in the HP and another member (from a strictly Wicca background) got voted HPS. We eventually nutted out things like text, rite, directions etc, and finally got to the crux of the Rite, the mixing of the elements. She insisted the dagger went ito the cup at the crucial moment (as dagger was fire and cup air) I insisted it must be the wand as wand is fire and other reasons.
What a discussion that ended up being. Finnally she was able to see the "tantric" symbolism in the act and after looking at all the correspondences implications and attributions, decided that the cup was her sacred Yoni and much prefered my wand other than my dagger being used.
It all went very well. After the rite the discussion came up again, not worth repeating except for one Wiccan who came up with a great statement that an Athame isnt a wand or a dagger, its an athame and is used (amongst other things) for putting in a cup in Wiccan cermonies.
I still dont like using it that way myself though.
What was surprising to me was the amount of people that had never seen a wand (or a spear or lance) go into a cup (even though they might say when putting the athame in the cup; "Spear to the cauldron of Cerridwin.")
I once had a very interesting debate about all this. I was working with the N.E. coast Pagan Forum and they decided to have a big festive spring Equinox (I think) and join the various traditions represented in an eclectic rite.
You can imagine what the results of that were? [The final results, ie, the rite itself were fantastic] I(from a hermetic ritual magicians background) ended up being voted in the HP and another member (from a strictly Wicca background) got voted HPS. We eventually nutted out things like text, rite, directions etc, and finally got to the crux of the Rite, the mixing of the elements. She insisted the dagger went ito the cup at the crucial moment (as dagger was fire and cup air) I insisted it must be the wand as wand is fire and other reasons.
What a discussion that ended up being. Finnally she was able to see the "tantric" symbolism in the act and after looking at all the correspondences implications and attributions, decided that the cup was her sacred Yoni and much prefered my wand other than my dagger being used.
It all went very well. After the rite the discussion came up again, not worth repeating except for one Wiccan who came up with a great statement that an Athame isnt a wand or a dagger, its an athame and is used (amongst other things) for putting in a cup in Wiccan cermonies.
I still dont like using it that way myself though.
What was surprising to me was the amount of people that had never seen a wand (or a spear or lance) go into a cup (even though they might say when putting the athame in the cup; "Spear to the cauldron of Cerridwin.")
dream mage
The_Star said:
First and foremost, I have studied a bit of everything, including a few pieces of astrology, and I find that though it may help in my study of the tarot, Astrology, like tarot... takes a lifetime to study and understand.
Secondly, a lot of these "New Age" tarot decks are done with a lot of thought and energy, if not love mixed into their creation. I think it's rather rude to state that because the creator was not "equal" to A.E.Waite, the resulting deck has no depth or meaning. Tarot is a tool, the cards themselves only have as much magical power as we the reader give them; and as a tool, the deck itself has as much meaning as you put into it.
For example.. can a reader get clear understanding from a deck that they have no love, no connection too? In my opinion, only someone who has a complete understanding of themselves can do so.
Thirdly, I never said that Swords to fire correspondance was a universal truth... if I had, I would be going against my whole philosophy that truth is inside oneself... and since we are all different, truth would be different according to who sees it.
In my study of Shamanism, tools such as a sword/dagger/athame do not have correspondences for abstract reasons like moving through the air... anything tossed through the air doesn't mean it has the correspondance of air... it is merely experiencing the element. In the same regard, all tools have all elements comprised in them, because in order to whole, you need the full cirlce.
I have also studied meditation.. and in my meditations, when I chose to experience an element, such as fire through the southern wheel, images of a sword (not dagger or athame) weilding seraph fill my mind.
I'm not trying to convince others of my thoughts. I'm just trying to share them. I have given this topic lots of thought, and I find myself leaning more and more towards an intuitive method of reading the tarot. This has lend me to more and more questions.
Thank you for your insights
Fulgour
Exaltation = Element
since I worked out that the "essential" attribute
of Mercury is Earth, based on its Virgo exaltation.
This is true (to me) for Mars as well ~ Earth again
because Mars is exalted in Capricorn. It's so neat
to be able to walk by the convolutions of astrology
and see for myself that Rulership is not the rule!
Moon ~ Earth (Taurus)
Venus ~ Water (Pisces)
Mars ~ Earth (Capricorn)
Mercury ~ Earth (Virgo)
Sun ~ Fire (Aries)
Jupiter ~ Water (Cancer)
Saturn ~ Air (Libra)
And every so often I blow a kiss to supercilious bleeps
like Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto ~ so far, far, far away.
I've been very happy (scientifically and intuitively)The_Star said:
since I worked out that the "essential" attribute
of Mercury is Earth, based on its Virgo exaltation.
This is true (to me) for Mars as well ~ Earth again
because Mars is exalted in Capricorn. It's so neat
to be able to walk by the convolutions of astrology
and see for myself that Rulership is not the rule!
Moon ~ Earth (Taurus)
Venus ~ Water (Pisces)
Mars ~ Earth (Capricorn)
Mercury ~ Earth (Virgo)
Sun ~ Fire (Aries)
Jupiter ~ Water (Cancer)
Saturn ~ Air (Libra)
And every so often I blow a kiss to supercilious bleeps
like Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto ~ so far, far, far away.
Fen Windglimmer
Would that mean that you can't get an accurate reading from a 'fun' deck, and that everyone should switch to one that has more authenticity?The_Star said:
I've just been given a Marseilles deck, do you know what sort of claims to authenticity that one has compared to a Waite deck?
Love and light to all
Fen
The_Star
Authentic Tarot
I know nothing about the Marseilles Tarot Deck. I believe that one can get an accurate reading from practically any tarot deck. However, 'readings' are only one purpose for using the cards.
I have found, with the Rider Waite Smith deck that contemplation exercises are powerful because of the symbolism that the cards contain. The RWS deck, in my opinion, uses symbolism (including astrological and alchemical symbols) that also communicates subconsciously with the user. I find them to be a potent tool for self transformation in addition to readings. The most accurate (readings) deck that I have ever used is Crowley's deck... it hits a bullseye every time.
Fen Windglimmer said:
I know nothing about the Marseilles Tarot Deck. I believe that one can get an accurate reading from practically any tarot deck. However, 'readings' are only one purpose for using the cards.
I have found, with the Rider Waite Smith deck that contemplation exercises are powerful because of the symbolism that the cards contain. The RWS deck, in my opinion, uses symbolism (including astrological and alchemical symbols) that also communicates subconsciously with the user. I find them to be a potent tool for self transformation in addition to readings. The most accurate (readings) deck that I have ever used is Crowley's deck... it hits a bullseye every time.
The_Star
Esoteric secrets....
The intuition, in my opinion, responds more favorably to tarot cards that contain symbolism that communicates both consciously and subconsciously. Waite's deck is rich with astrological and alchemical symbolism.
Aside from readings, Waite's deck, I find, is a powerful tool for 'invoking' the metaphysical archetypes by contemplation of the major arcana. Waite's deck also has the most commentary available (from various authors) than any other deck.
Waite, sworn to secrecy, is stingy with his commentary regarding the cards, however, his symbolism contains complete metaphysical truths.
The eventual goal of the tarot (opinion) is 'liberation'. By liberation I mean a complete transcendence of ego and the full and complete restoration of the individual as a 'spiritual entity' who was temporarily 'trapped' in a material context in a lower realm. Waite's deck is a roadmap of human consciousness designed to ultimately restore the creative consciousness (Magician) to its 'original condition' of absolute power and authority over the elements. One of the highest attainments possible is the ability to 'come and go' from material form. A transcendence of the 'animal nature' and entry into the spirit.
Any deck can give insight and accurate readings, however, the complete cosmology of mind, body and spirit is contained in Waite's cards.
Waite, as do most other accomplished metaphysicians, knew that beginning tarot students find themselves in the 'realm of death' (life leading to death) and knew that this life to death stuff is a 'reversal' (Hanged Man) of natural law. Natural law (also) is about life leading to greater life and the elimination of death and its complicating conundrums. The 'prison' that the tarot is designed to disintegrate is the ego and its tether to the underworld of eventual physical death.
I have found most other decks (aside from Crowley's) to be lacking in the complete symbolism that contains (non-verbal) the deeper truth's that take one 'out of the box' of material 'reality'.
dream mage said:
The intuition, in my opinion, responds more favorably to tarot cards that contain symbolism that communicates both consciously and subconsciously. Waite's deck is rich with astrological and alchemical symbolism.
Aside from readings, Waite's deck, I find, is a powerful tool for 'invoking' the metaphysical archetypes by contemplation of the major arcana. Waite's deck also has the most commentary available (from various authors) than any other deck.
Waite, sworn to secrecy, is stingy with his commentary regarding the cards, however, his symbolism contains complete metaphysical truths.
The eventual goal of the tarot (opinion) is 'liberation'. By liberation I mean a complete transcendence of ego and the full and complete restoration of the individual as a 'spiritual entity' who was temporarily 'trapped' in a material context in a lower realm. Waite's deck is a roadmap of human consciousness designed to ultimately restore the creative consciousness (Magician) to its 'original condition' of absolute power and authority over the elements. One of the highest attainments possible is the ability to 'come and go' from material form. A transcendence of the 'animal nature' and entry into the spirit.
Any deck can give insight and accurate readings, however, the complete cosmology of mind, body and spirit is contained in Waite's cards.
Waite, as do most other accomplished metaphysicians, knew that beginning tarot students find themselves in the 'realm of death' (life leading to death) and knew that this life to death stuff is a 'reversal' (Hanged Man) of natural law. Natural law (also) is about life leading to greater life and the elimination of death and its complicating conundrums. The 'prison' that the tarot is designed to disintegrate is the ego and its tether to the underworld of eventual physical death.
I have found most other decks (aside from Crowley's) to be lacking in the complete symbolism that contains (non-verbal) the deeper truth's that take one 'out of the box' of material 'reality'.
