Waite's Second Tarot Deck - Originals Discovered

Oddly enough I'm on the side of the Fellowship. If one wants to understand the images and learn what they mean you can always join them and go through the classes and get the teachings. Why do we feel this sense of entitlement to other peoples stuff. This is not a new deck of 78 cards, this is a series of 32 paintings that have been used to help them study the paths and worlds. That is all. There is never going to be a 3 of swords or a King of Wands. They are not meant for cards they are meant as pieces of meditative art. I think we tend to treat knowledge and philosophy with little respect to the process these days. Just because your 10 year old wants to drive a car, you'll never just hand them the keys and say here you go. Or just because we have watched a video on how to put in plumbing we can't go out and just install it where ever we want. To fully understand what is in these paintings (and I stress that these are PAINTINGS and NOT tarot cards.. ) one would most likely have to go through their teachings to fully glean what they mean. I doubt that most people would really be interested in joining and taking on the full program of the Fellowship. Well then I guess they REALLY don't want to learn about the pictures fully.They want to understand the tarot part of it but not the whole thing. It would be like wanting to learn how to drive real fast but not caring about learning to break or stop. In order to work the ideas you need to understand the whole system. Would it be cool to see them, oh yes I'm not saying that it would not, but do I feel it's our right to see them, hell no.


off soapbox..

Two things:

Firstly, your comparisons are absurd. People's lives would be put at risk if you let a ten year old drive a car, and there would be a danger to health and safety if you were to attempt your own plumbing with little knowledge too. We are not even talking about people conducting rituals with the images (as the FRC do) but without the surrounding spiritual knowledge (which I think more people than you realise have anyway, although perhaps not in the precise form that the FRC use); We are talking about people wanting to see the images and maybe get them made up into cards for tarot reading.

And secondly, like I said before, WE ALREADY HAVE these images. They are already in the possession of people outside the FRC.

You need to stop thinking of this in terms of people being absurd and thinking they have a right to any knowledge held by anyone at any time ever, and start to think in real terms of a bunch of whiny, over-dramatic people belonging to an occult society thinking they have a copyright-like right to suppress the publication of some images which once belonged to some people whose occult society name they copied; Images which exist outside their order anyway but which a bunch of new people wish to disgustingly exploit for money.

That is the real situation as I see it and offensively state it. This is why I have no friends.

edit: I just realised that your argument means you are probably opposed to anyone buying the Thoth tarot unless they agree to read the Book of Thoth and totally understand it. In fact your argument seems to go against anyone using any image for any purpose other than its intended one which is a rather dark and deep thing. I hope you don't really believe this and it's just an artefact of a hastily drawn-together argument.

graspee said:

By wording it the way you did- "the religious icons used as objects of contemplation..." you downplay the interest they hold...

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No, I am emphasising a point that is being neglected/downplayed, that is the nature of sacrament - and anyone who fails to understand that, will fail to understand Waite / Trinick and the 32 symbols of the paths anyway...

graspee said:

...
You need to stop thinking of this in terms of people being absurd and thinking they have a right to any knowledge held by anyone at any time ever, and start to think in real terms of a bunch of whiny, over-dramatic people belonging to an occult society thinking they have a copyright-like right to suppress the publication of some images which once belonged to some people whose occult society name they copied; Images which exist outside their order anyway but which a bunch of new people wish to disgustingly exploit for money.
...

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A sleightly unfair way of thinking of it I think: you have stated yourself you do not know anything about the status of the current FRC or its history and thus do not know what legitimate claims to succession they have; also, so far as I know, as yet they have made no claims to copyright, only regret that the symbols they consider sacred should be exploited as tarot cards in a way they consider disrespects their intended purpose. Secondly in respect of 'new people who wish to disgustingly exploit for money', though there are those who will be making money along the way of course (the fundraising site's 9%, paypal's 4%, the photographer's, printer's and licencee's cut for example), in monetary terms at least I think Tali and Marcus have stated they themselves are producing the book on a non-profit basis.

graspee said:

We are talking about people wanting to see the images and maybe get them made up into cards for tarot reading.

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Sooo Graspee define what makes a tarot deck to you?

graspee said:

We are not even talking about people conducting rituals with the images (as the FRC do) but without the surrounding spiritual knowledge (which I think more people than you realise have anyway, although perhaps not in the precise form that the FRC use)

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So your saying that all spiritual knowledge by now is public and that everyone knows it so why do we need these images then>



As for my views on the use on images I do feel that if people are going to use images and speak to what these images say them they should educate themselves on what the art or image is. It's not 'dark and deep' just respect for the artist or culture that gave birth to the idea of the art that you are now using for you own gain. Do I think everyone that buys a thoth should read the Book of Thoth. No. But would you get a greater understanding of the image and depth to the art.
It would be like watching the movie version of say Dracula then discussing the plot of the story with some one that had read the original. They know what has been changed, what the motive behind actions are they are not in a filmed version because within the novel one gets into the minds of the characters and that can't be filmed.

It's just like you can read and learn every initiation rite of every magical order ever and yet never know the depth of what they MEAN because you need to go through them not just read them. Oh but then again why read the book you should already be there spiritually to not need them...

Moderator Note

Let's bring the discussion back to the actual images/originals.

How can you call this a tarot deck?

I'm having a hard time following this.

The Rosy Cross people have the 22* original paintings in their London headquarters.
Slide shows of the images have been and continue to be presented.
There are black and white copies of something--Mary posted one on her blog.
Tali and Marcus found something on e-bay.
They say they have permission from the owner of the images they intend to publish.

So what was on e-bay? And what's with the Rosy Cross's originals?


eta: *Kwaw points out that there are 32 paintings--22 paths, plus 10 as the sephiroth are considered paths as well.

Well it's not in the form of a tarot deck as it stands at the moment, Nicky, but there are 22 images and they represent the major arcana, so could be made into a 22 card set. Whether one thinks a majors only deck is a tarot deck is a matter for debate; I believe it has been debated on these forums many times. I know some people who use only the majors for certain spreads though.

I think this is a close summary:

1. JB Trinck made original color paintings. How did the paintings become known as 'tarot?'

2. Waite by 1926 has written some commentary and alluded to a meditational set of tarot symbols in mind when he wrote an article called The Great Symbols of Tarot" in 1926. This is said to be the JB Trinck painted images, according to DDD on page 157, chapter ten of "The Golden Dawn Glimmers On, in a subsection titled "Waite's Second Tarot.

3. Now about what Ms. Goodwin and Mr. Katz discovered....From Mary Greer's blog:

Waite’s Second Tarot Deck—An Incredible Discovery
September 17, 2011 in Major Arcana, Secrets of the Occult Tarot, Tarot Deck Reports, Tarot History & Research, Tarot News & Events

Tali Goodwin of Tarot Professionals and the blog Tarot Speakeasy, through extensive research, has discovered the ORIGINAL Waite-Trinick images that comprised a tarot deck conceptualized by A.E. Waite for the private use of members of his Fellowship of the Rosy Cross. Tali tracked the family of stained glass artist, J. B. Trinick, who had lived in Kendal, England, and found the original color paintings!

Late last year Marcus Katz stumbled across an ebay sale for a set of worn and damaged images that he immediately recognized as part of a mysterious second Waite deck. It had been brought to the attention of tarotists in Ronald Decker and Michael Dummett’s book A History of the Occult Tarot....The new discovery was part of a series of several major synchronicities in the story of this rare deck that have taken place over the last two years.

Tali and Marcus were able to view and photograph the beautiful and enigmatic original paintings and have agreed with the owners to bring out a book (in color and b&w) of the major twenty-two images with full commentary prior to Christmas 2011.

The commentary will be based on Waite’s unpublished and extensive commentary on the images, which has led to a complete mapping of Waite’s “secret” correspondences to the Tree of Life. Marcus says that this set of correspondences is so blindingly obvious and “makes sense,” such that he believes we will be astounded.

http://marygreer.wordpress.com/2011/09/17/waites-second-tarot-deck—an-incredible-discovery/

4. So the forthcoming book will have photos of JB Trinck's paintings said to be "Waite's Second Tarot". The images will be also explained with knowledgeable commentary by Mr. Katz and Ms. Goodwin, along with Waite's own words. The idea that I am receiving is this book will help explain better and include actual images about what Waite means by 1926 when he talks about the 'Great Symbols of Tarot'....?

Anyway, I am anticipating a good weave of words and photos of old beautiful paintings with tarotlike symbols from one of the creators of the Waite-Smith tarot...that is a rather wonderous thing to me.

I hope the information put together like this reads easier for some...I can delete these merged notes if people think the summary is misleading or not needed.

Best,

Cerulean

Debra said:

I'm having a hard time following this.

The Rosy Cross people have the 22 original paintings in their London headquarters.
Slide shows of the images have been and continue to be presented.
There are black and white copies of something--Mary posted one on her blog.
Tali and Marcus found something on e-bay.
They say they have permission from the owner of the images they intend to publish.

So what was on e-bay? And what's with the Rosy Cross's originals?

Click to expand...

graspee said:

Well it's not in the form of a tarot deck as it stands at the moment, Nicky, but there are 22 images and they represent the major arcana, so could be made into a 22 card set. Whether one thinks a majors only deck is a tarot deck is a matter for debate; I believe it has been debated on these forums many times. I know some people who use only the majors for certain spreads though.

Click to expand...

I assume they are related in some way to the idea that the tree is related in some way to tarot - just like astrology and qaballah and numerology and whatnot relate to tarot but they are their own systems. Not tarot sorry