kwaw
Rosanne said:
Hi Rosanne
I like it ... seems a better 'fit' to me than throne/planets, not sure about the chariot however. Could we see perhaps the figure atop the wheel of fortune as being enthroned?
Kwaw
The Behenian Fixed Stars
Hi Rosanne
I like it ... seems a better 'fit' to me than throne/planets, not sure about the chariot however. Could we see perhaps the figure atop the wheel of fortune as being enthroned?
Kwaw
Rosanne
Hi Kwaw- yes I am not sure about the Chariot myself either- thought it might be Mars. I like the idea of WOF as a throned card. Can you give me a reason for Procyon to be WOF? Nor am I sure about Antares as Justice.
Aside from this intellectual exercise (which makes me feel decidedly below par
) I like the emblemata view of Tarot best of all. I like the 7's planets, 7 ages of man, 3x7 + Le fou. I can't see how this Behenian list would have easily been followed, unless I have to eat my hat when Scion puts his model out. I am very sick of throwing tomatoes at myself over this.
What do you think of these cards as Planets? 0 1 6 7 9 18 19 . They sort of look like the ages of man as planets. I keep seeing Le Fou as Sirius though.~Rosanne
Aside from this intellectual exercise (which makes me feel decidedly below par
) I like the emblemata view of Tarot best of all. I like the 7's planets, 7 ages of man, 3x7 + Le fou. I can't see how this Behenian list would have easily been followed, unless I have to eat my hat when Scion puts his model out. I am very sick of throwing tomatoes at myself over this.What do you think of these cards as Planets? 0 1 6 7 9 18 19 . They sort of look like the ages of man as planets. I keep seeing Le Fou as Sirius though.~Rosanne
Rosanne
Ok on the first scan is- seven cards for seven planets, seven cards for seven Stars on the ecliptic (Sun's apparent Path)They are the ones I assume as being 'Throned' 2, 3, 4, 5, 8 (Justice) 10, 15.
The Planets are 0, 1, 6, 7, 9, 18, 19.
That leaves eight cards for eight stars that are not on the ecliptic.
They are on the second scan.
11(Strength/Force) 12, 13, 14,16, 17, 20, 21.They are assigned to constellations
Algol- Taurus, Capella- Gemini, Sirius- Cancer, Polaris- Gemini, Gienah-Libra,
Arcturus- Libra, Alphecca- Scorpio, Vega-Capricorn. They are not always exactly with the Zodiac sign.
Anyone like to match them up?
~Rosanne
The Planets are 0, 1, 6, 7, 9, 18, 19.
That leaves eight cards for eight stars that are not on the ecliptic.
They are on the second scan.
11(Strength/Force) 12, 13, 14,16, 17, 20, 21.They are assigned to constellations
Algol- Taurus, Capella- Gemini, Sirius- Cancer, Polaris- Gemini, Gienah-Libra,
Arcturus- Libra, Alphecca- Scorpio, Vega-Capricorn. They are not always exactly with the Zodiac sign.
Anyone like to match them up?
~Rosanne
Attachments
Scion
Rosanne, I don't think you're going to be eating any hats!
My Sirius is Fool too. in two of my three versions...
With the Dog that close to Orion it just had to be.
It IS interesting/informative to think about the Trumps this way, something apart from the post-Levi Qabalistic model that's so ubiquitous... Even if these aren't the system, they are a system, and it's nice to shake my mental rugs out on the balcony.
I'll post these stupid PDFs tomorrow... I have meetings all day today, but my Saturday is free and breezy.
S
My Sirius is Fool too. in two of my three versions...
With the Dog that close to Orion it just had to be.It IS interesting/informative to think about the Trumps this way, something apart from the post-Levi Qabalistic model that's so ubiquitous... Even if these aren't the system, they are a system, and it's nice to shake my mental rugs out on the balcony.
I'll post these stupid PDFs tomorrow... I have meetings all day today, but my Saturday is free and breezy.
S
kwaw
Rosanne said:
I am trying to keep an open mind, but must admit I would find it hard to put aside my favoured Fou/Sirius connection go
Don't think you have anything to throw tomotoes over yourself for. As scion says, even if it is not 'the' system, it is a system, a usefull exercise in itself and in thinking out of the usual box I at least am learning a lot of new things and enjoying the journey.Kwaw
Satori
So, if anyone has a bit of extra time, do any of you care to sort of explain what the alternate system is that you are developing here??? I've read the posts and had conversations with Scion, but, need it spelled out. If you don't then that is ok...I'll continue to reread the thread! But I've been watching this develop and find myself checking in daily as if tuning into a local channel for the latest soap opera update. The cast of characters is somewhat familiar except that I don't quite know if I get it.
Looks like you are creating a star chart that will put the majors under the domain of certain fixed stars, the Behenian Fixed Stars. Is that it?
Looks like you are creating a star chart that will put the majors under the domain of certain fixed stars, the Behenian Fixed Stars. Is that it?
Rosanne
Hi Satori! Some time ago Kwaw linked a poem by a guy called John Gower, who wrote in ye Olde English about this list of Stars. There are 15 stars and 7 planets = 22.
Here is a bit from Wikipedia
The Behenian fixed stars are a selection of fifteen stars considered especially useful for magical applications in the medieval astrology of Europe and the Arab world. Their name derives from Arabic bahman, "root," as each was considered a source of astrological power for one or more planets. Each is also connected with a gemstone and plant that would be used in rituals meant to draw the star's influence (e.g., into a talisman). When a planet was within six degrees of an associated star, this influence was thought to be particularly strong.
Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa discussed them in his De Occulta Philosophia as the Behenii (singular Behenius), describing their magical workings and kabbalistic symbols. He attributed these to Hermes Trismegistus, as was common with occult traditions in the Middle Ages. Their true origin remains unknown, though Sir Wallis Budge suspects a possible Sumerian source.
So as magic and occultism, astrology etc are mentioned it has been suggested in the past that the number 22 has come up (again )and could it have something to do with Tarot?
So yes you are right! I am guessing Scion has a computer model like my crude tower of 15 fixed and 7 moving stars associated with the Majors.
For me personally, I have been doing somersaults trying to work it out! I reckon it is coincidental this number 22 Stars- like the 22 chapters of Revelations/ Apocolypse- could be? might be? Nah!
The thing is- it has been very interesting. I think a lot of Tarotists think history is boring. When it is about images it is not, I think. It is like seeing the family photo album and going ahha! thats why I look like I do. In this case I get to think about how when Tarot was born- they only had herbs to cure things, and the stars to guide them. Those guys were clever, without the resources of today- they leave us dead in the water. I go out at night and hang Tarot cards in the sky- and I like the somersaulting, it keeps Dementia at bay ~Rosanne
Here is a bit from Wikipedia
The Behenian fixed stars are a selection of fifteen stars considered especially useful for magical applications in the medieval astrology of Europe and the Arab world. Their name derives from Arabic bahman, "root," as each was considered a source of astrological power for one or more planets. Each is also connected with a gemstone and plant that would be used in rituals meant to draw the star's influence (e.g., into a talisman). When a planet was within six degrees of an associated star, this influence was thought to be particularly strong.
Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa discussed them in his De Occulta Philosophia as the Behenii (singular Behenius), describing their magical workings and kabbalistic symbols. He attributed these to Hermes Trismegistus, as was common with occult traditions in the Middle Ages. Their true origin remains unknown, though Sir Wallis Budge suspects a possible Sumerian source.
So as magic and occultism, astrology etc are mentioned it has been suggested in the past that the number 22 has come up (again )and could it have something to do with Tarot?
So yes you are right! I am guessing Scion has a computer model like my crude tower of 15 fixed and 7 moving stars associated with the Majors.
For me personally, I have been doing somersaults trying to work it out! I reckon it is coincidental this number 22 Stars- like the 22 chapters of Revelations/ Apocolypse- could be? might be? Nah!
The thing is- it has been very interesting. I think a lot of Tarotists think history is boring. When it is about images it is not, I think. It is like seeing the family photo album and going ahha! thats why I look like I do. In this case I get to think about how when Tarot was born- they only had herbs to cure things, and the stars to guide them. Those guys were clever, without the resources of today- they leave us dead in the water. I go out at night and hang Tarot cards in the sky- and I like the somersaulting, it keeps Dementia at bay
~RosanneSatori
Ah, now some of the conversations I have been having with Scion about this make even more sense! This is not the easiest stuff to grasp and I was wondering about the Kabbalistic piece.
Thanks for the summary. Nicely put in understandable terms, and with the charts that Scion will be posting I bet more light will dawn! I think you all are doing very interesting work. I actually have enjoyed the plant info the most, hate to say. Also love the bee spiral idea.
Now, this is far out, but do you think the designs and potentially placement of any of the old herb gardens had any significance or parallel to the fixed stars under discussion here?
Thanks for the summary. Nicely put in understandable terms, and with the charts that Scion will be posting I bet more light will dawn! I think you all are doing very interesting work. I actually have enjoyed the plant info the most, hate to say. Also love the bee spiral idea.
Now, this is far out, but do you think the designs and potentially placement of any of the old herb gardens had any significance or parallel to the fixed stars under discussion here?
Satori
http://www.world-mysteries.com/alignments/mpl_alindx.htm#World
What about this??
Okay, I had to get off abruptly last night, but on the map there are 15 sites/points that make up the circle of points. Didn't know if it would have any bearing on the discussion - was just caught by the 15 points.
Also looks like there are sites in the list that aren't plotted. If you count the sites on the list I think there are 17 which blows the theory that the Behenian stars might have those particular placeholders here. Or does it?
Do they line up?? I'm not sure how to go about figuring that part out...
What about this??
Okay, I had to get off abruptly last night, but on the map there are 15 sites/points that make up the circle of points. Didn't know if it would have any bearing on the discussion - was just caught by the 15 points.
Also looks like there are sites in the list that aren't plotted. If you count the sites on the list I think there are 17 which blows the theory that the Behenian stars might have those particular placeholders here. Or does it?
Do they line up?? I'm not sure how to go about figuring that part out...
Scion
Throned Ecliptic version
Okay... one 6-page table/chart done: this is basically my version of the throned Ecliptic model which uses the "logical" planets I mentioned earlier and ironically matches up very closely with Rosanne's thrones ecliptics (hence this chart's name). BUT...
There are two big differences between Rosanne's thrones and mine. I don't read Devil as throned because he's standing (like Chariot is standing). I replace those two with Wheel (as mentioned above) and the World: because I see the Vesica Piscis as the World Soul enthroned upon the Evangelists. I just don't think they could bring themselves to depict the transcendant, unknowable, Almighty G-D sitting in a literal chair.
I gotta admit that many of these associations feel like locks because they work under so many different modes of viewing:
Sirius as Fool
Pleiades as Papess
Vega as Hanged Man
Algol as Devil
Aldebaran as World
... although as Kwaw says, I'm trying to keep an open mind.
And there are things in this version that just feel wrong. Totaly subjective, but since this is purely speculative it's a big dilemma. My one main headache that I CANNOT solve in this version is what I'm starting to call the Jupiter problem. Essentially Jupiter IS the condition of being enthroned, but since the throned figures line up with the ecliptic stars in every case but this one, I went ahead and moved Jupiter, for better or worse... You'll see what I mean.
The next one I'm gonna do tosses out the ecliptic/throne idea, and just goes SUPER literal on the iconography and descriptions, so it'll be a modification of this one...
Rosanne, I'm still dying to know how your 7 tiered, 1 planet to 2 Behenians model would plot out...
Here's the first one and I've included a LOT of wacky research for you lunatics to chew upon. Feel free to shred it and ciriticize it and ridicule it. EVen I can see the goofy leaps of logic in here. but I wanted to see what happened if I followed this particlaur set of rules. Now I'm gonna go try to follow a different set.
I'm hoping I can post this PDF here, but if I can't I'm gonna stick it somewhere downloadable.
Scion
Okay... one 6-page table/chart done: this is basically my version of the throned Ecliptic model which uses the "logical" planets I mentioned earlier and ironically matches up very closely with Rosanne's thrones ecliptics (hence this chart's name). BUT...
There are two big differences between Rosanne's thrones and mine. I don't read Devil as throned because he's standing (like Chariot is standing). I replace those two with Wheel (as mentioned above) and the World: because I see the Vesica Piscis as the World Soul enthroned upon the Evangelists. I just don't think they could bring themselves to depict the transcendant, unknowable, Almighty G-D sitting in a literal chair.
I gotta admit that many of these associations feel like locks because they work under so many different modes of viewing:
Sirius as Fool
Pleiades as Papess
Vega as Hanged Man
Algol as Devil
Aldebaran as World
... although as Kwaw says, I'm trying to keep an open mind.
And there are things in this version that just feel wrong. Totaly subjective, but since this is purely speculative it's a big dilemma. My one main headache that I CANNOT solve in this version is what I'm starting to call the Jupiter problem. Essentially Jupiter IS the condition of being enthroned, but since the throned figures line up with the ecliptic stars in every case but this one, I went ahead and moved Jupiter, for better or worse... You'll see what I mean.
The next one I'm gonna do tosses out the ecliptic/throne idea, and just goes SUPER literal on the iconography and descriptions, so it'll be a modification of this one...
Rosanne, I'm still dying to know how your 7 tiered, 1 planet to 2 Behenians model would plot out...
Here's the first one and I've included a LOT of wacky research for you lunatics to chew upon.
Feel free to shred it and ciriticize it and ridicule it. EVen I can see the goofy leaps of logic in here. but I wanted to see what happened if I followed this particlaur set of rules. Now I'm gonna go try to follow a different set. I'm hoping I can post this PDF here, but if I can't I'm gonna stick it somewhere downloadable.
Scion
