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Do What Thou Wilt: Split from Book of Law Study Group 1.5

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Quote:
Originally Posted by similia
What are Thelemites conception of the cost of failure to discover and live your Will?
A less fulfilled life??? A continued time of trying again and again and until you get it?

Mostly ...? The big mess we have at present on a world wide scale? General unhappyness and unfulfillment ... the collapse of social systems etc etc.

Regardless of the system, all humans need, within their culture, a sense of purpose (mission or true will), an understanding of how and WHY they they are here and a flexibility beteween themselves and their social culture and contribution. Take that away and men are worse than animals (I know from anthropological studies).

The crux of this is what Thelema focuses on ... your own individual True will and expression.
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Originally Posted by ravenest
??? I am an ordained 'Thelemite' Priest in the OTO's Thelemic Gnostic Catholic Church (E.G.C.)
Hmmmm..... not sure where you're going with this? Are you trying to say that being ordained by the EGC makes you a Thelemic priest? As I've always understood it, the OTO (including EGC) is merely an organisation that accepted Thelema. It's not the source of Thelema itself. It's just one particular vehicle of Thelema. As such, it's positions of office are only relevant within the confines of the order. In the wider context of Thelema the role of EGC Priest doesn't mean anything.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by similia
Maybe when its really broken down, its different is only structural, the removal of the "Priest"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest
??? I am an ordained 'Thelemite' Priest in the OTO's Thelemic Gnostic Catholic Church (E.G.C.)
Sure, but in that context even Protestants have priests. But you/they don't play the same role as a Catholic priest (for example) did historically, with the ability to pardon your sins or damn you by not doing so etc.. (which is what I was referring to).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenest
I'm a goat ... I'll look aftermyself thanks ... with the help of some other goats maybe.
I'm trying to remember the title Crowley's father had, as a priestly-non-priest in the Brethren. Can anyone jog my memory? For Thelema to truly have priests, my understanding is they would need to be priests of the A.A. and not the O.T.O.

I think even religions like Catholicism are moving towards a different conception of "priest" recently, as a way to stay in existence in modern society. The priest seems to me to be generally less of a figure who can speak with the authority of a/god, and more a partner in teaching. Maybe the new aeon is leaking into the old aeon religions
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest
A continued time of trying again and again and until you get it?
Is this meant in the same sense as Buddhism? Thelema as a way to get off the cycle of incarnation?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by similia
Is this meant in the same sense as Buddhism? Thelema as a way to get off the cycle of incarnation?
Almost. Buddhism essentially says, "All is sorrow. Stop the ride (cycle of incarnation), I want to get off". Nirvana.

Thelema teaches that the ride (the cycle of incarnation) is to be experienced. It's the reason you are here. But the end goal is the same. Return to Nuit.

2:9. Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains.

See the essay on Sorrow in, Little Essays Towards Truth, for more on this point. http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/litt...ys/sorrow.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
Hmmmm..... not sure where you're going with this? Are you trying to say that being ordained by the EGC makes you a Thelemic priest?
It makes me a priest in the EGC which is a liturgical expression of Thelema. Wether you call it that or a Thelemic priest is up to your own understanding I guess .. I am a Thelemite and a Priest in a Thelemic Church ... I guess if Thelemic priest is incorrect I could become a Priestly Thelemite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon 418
As I've always understood it, the OTO (including EGC) is merely an organisation that accepted Thelema.

Merely ...? AC created / restructured these organisations personally as an expression of Thelema.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon 418

It's not the source of Thelema itself. It's just one particular vehicle of Thelema. As such, it's positions of office are only relevant within the confines of the order. In the wider context of Thelema the role of EGC Priest doesn't mean anything.
Isnt saying that NARROWING the concept of Thelema? Besides ... in the wider context of Thelema ... I doubt anyone can make a deffinitave statement that applies to all ... or even another.

The word 'religion' may not appear in the Book of the Law, but the term Priest does
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Quote:
Originally Posted by similia
Sure, but in that context even Protestants have priests. But you/they don't play the same role as a Catholic priest (for example) did historically, with the ability to pardon your sins or damn you by not doing so etc.. (which is what I was referring to).
Oh ... I missed the specific deffinition of priest ... I thought we were talking about preists generally.
(And I can pardon and damn quiet well ... ... If you feel the need to make 'Gnostic confession,' I will hear it ... just be prepared for a penance of 6 beers and go and have a good ****. )
Quote:
Originally Posted by similia
For Thelema to truly have priests, my understanding is they would need to be priests of the A.A. and not the O.T.O.
Why? They are different expressions of Thelema ... does the fact that A.A., didnt exist before AC invented it give it more cred or validity than the OTO which he adapted to Thelemic usage?
Quote:
Originally Posted by similia
I think even religions like Catholicism are moving towards a different conception of "priest" recently, as a way to stay in existence in modern society. The priest seems to me to be generally less of a figure who can speak with the authority of a/god, and more a partner in teaching. Maybe the new aeon is leaking into the old aeon religions
I think the misunderstanding arises from what Priest actually means in a Thelemic context. Priest can mean other than what it does in mainstream Christianity and Catholicism (And the 'Catholic' in Gnostic Catholic Church may also have another meaning different than to what most think when they think of 'Catholic Church'.)

It might be easier to understand when we look at the role of the Thelemic Priestess ... (okay, I threw a rock at the hornet's nest there )

AC has a cool little def of why the function of priest in the old aeon has now changed to a new formular of priest priestess and ... as an expression of new Aeon .... I'lll try to dig it out when I get home.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by similia
Is this meant in the same sense as Buddhism? Thelema as a way to get off the cycle of incarnation?
I meant within the one lifetime. I'm not sure 'Thelema' wants to get off the cycle of incarnation. Buddhism has a type of 'denial' that isnt in Thelema. The bottom line of Thelema isnt suffering, it has that 'trance' but goes beyond into a higher type of Vedanta (sort of).

Existance is pure joy!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest
Why? They are different expressions of Thelema ... does the fact that A.A., didnt exist before AC invented it give it more cred or validity than the OTO which he adapted to Thelemic usage?
My understanding is that the A.A. existed pre-Crowley as the highest level of a magical "faculty" of the which the G.D. was the lowest and the RRAC the middle level. The AA was composed of a membership advanced beyond the level of human potential (i.e. above the Abyss, Mather's Secret Chiefs).

In that sense the A.A. (at its summit) in my understanding is a body of higher powers who act through bodies like the OTO (and previously the GD in the old aeon) to transmit their message (in this case the BoL or message or the new Aeon). The A.A. has an incarnate membership at its lower levels, but at its head is a bunch of dudes who glow in the dark

So my understanding (which could be very wrong) is not that AC invented the A.A. to transmit Thelema vs. the O.T.O which he reshaped to transmit Thelema. Thats not the distinction I'm trying to make, nor a judgement on which is better. But rather the A.A. used Crowley to transmit Thelema, which he then did via the O.T.O. as its temporal body, and also in a physical vehicle based on the A.A (a one on one tranmission, devoid of the community of the OTO).

That's my understanding of the difference. Though being a member of neither, I'm may need correction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by similia
My understanding is that the A.A. existed pre-Crowley as the highest level of a magical "faculty" of the which the G.D. was the lowest and the RRAC the middle level. The AA was composed of a membership advanced beyond the level of human potential (i.e. above the Abyss, Mather's Secret Chiefs).

In that sense the A.A. (at its summit) in my understanding is a body of higher powers who act through bodies like the OTO (and previously the GD in the old aeon) to transmit their message (in this case the BoL or message or the new Aeon). The A.A. has an incarnate membership at its lower levels, but at its head is a bunch of dudes who glow in the dark

So my understanding (which could be very wrong) is not that AC invented the A.A. to transmit Thelema vs. the O.T.O which he reshaped to transmit Thelema. Thats not the distinction I'm trying to make, nor a judgement on which is better. But rather the A.A. used Crowley to transmit Thelema, which he then did via the O.T.O. as its temporal body, and also in a physical vehicle based on the A.A (a one on one tranmission, devoid of the community of the OTO).

That's my understanding of the difference. Though being a member of neither, I'm may need correction
Hmmm ... I like the pic you paint pretty much as it is. Although its not the way I see it ... but I dont want to get deep into the diff between OTO and AA now. My understanding is that they dont see them themselves connected to each other as you make out ... but they may be ... I'm sus on people who give directions from 'Secret Chiefs' to other adepts / students / probationers. (check out what happened with the GD ) I like the concept of a temporal head .. a corporate person ... the buck stops here ... not passed on to some discorporate entities who are alledged to call the shots. The way I see the OTO is its up to YOU to make that magical link with the 'secret chiefs' of the 'GWB' who overseee the 'destiny and evolution' of the world and human conciousness (which ever way you want to see that energy) not the head of the Order.
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