Why Are There No Kings in this Deck!!!

The reason its hard to wrap your head around it is that in some ways it does NOT make sense. A queen might have had a knight as her champion, but he served HER. She was his superior when it came to rank. In real life history, anyway. In terms of rank, a queen is above a knight. The Thoth method (in my opinion) would be like saying that if a woman were the USA president, one of the senators or admirals or something were above her. In certain circumstances they might act as leader, but in overall rank, she's the top.

weaver said:

I think this is where I get confused. To my way of thinking, the Knights have more of an adolescent, testosterone charged energy. They are coming into their own power, but haven't quite arrived there yet. By contrast, the Kings to me are more mature, seasoned, stable, and, quite likely, generally a bit more sedate.

Wouldn't the Queen, a mature, well rounded energy in Tarot, be married to the more mature and accomplished King?

weaver

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That is exactly how I thought a Knight is!

A King is a king and a Knight is a knight. It is quite difficult for me to comprehend that a Knight can be read as a King in a sense that he does not have the full power yet to execute a command as a king does have. The Knights in fact are just supposed to be serving the Kings.

Another question is, could a Knight be more higher in rank than a Prince?

- Ranzel

It might better if you think of the courts as an evolving family. The Knight is the younger-sexier version of the King. He travels the country side slaying dragons and such, until he finds a nice Queen and wins her hand in a grand display of chivalry and violence So he becomes King. Its not really correct to think of the Knight as a servant of the King. He is really both, Knight and King. Thinking of him as a warrior king may help a little. It might make more sense to think of it in a matriarchal society, though thats getting a little away from the point.

Ranzel said:

Another question is, could a Knight be more higher in rank than a Prince?

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The Prince is the son of the Knight/King and the Queen. So he's is not ranked higher than his father. He combines the active energy of the Knight/King, with the more stable and enduring energy of the Queen. That is why he sits in a chariot. He sits as the Queen does on a throne, but it moving as the Knight/King does on his horse. The Prince has the best of both worlds. And he'll eventually find a Princess, and they'll marry, and eventually become Knight/King and Queen themselves one day.

It may also help you to look at the Golden Dawn decks. Crowley's Thoth is based on the GD decks, and in the GD decks the King is on Horseback.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/golden-dawn-magical/ e.g. see the King of Swords here. Its the same fellow as in Crowley's Knight of Swords. Crowley Knight is exactly the same as the GD's King. Crowley just renamed him so he'd be more dynamic and sexy. Its all very Bold-and-the-Beautiful really Its not about seniority at all. Its about sex and breeding Wouldn't you rather a sexy-young Knight/King to a crusty old boring one?

You got a good point there, Similia. But, is that how it's really interpreted in Thoth Tarot?

If so, then the King which is a Knight in this deck becomes an action figure rather than an accomplished person who sits in his throne issuing commands and controls the whole kingdom.

Ranzel

Ranzel said:

You got a good point there, Similia. But, is that how it's really interpreted in Thoth Tarot?

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That's one way you can look at it with the Thoth and similar decks. There more to it, but for the purposes of a tarot reading, I think thats a good way to look at it.

Ranzel said:

If so, then the King which is a Knight in this deck becomes an action figure rather than an accomplished person who sits in his throne issuing commands and controls the whole kingdom.

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Exactly. There is no distant figure on their throne issuing orders in these decks. The Knight/King is the Fire element, and the Yod (first letter of the name of God). So he's the initial action, the impulse to start. His power is developed by his relationships to the rest of the royal family (i.e. shagging the Queen). I think you need to think of them as a family (the Forresters, if your a B&B fan ). If you try to think of them as political figures, you get off track and will be confused.

similia said:

Exactly. There is no distant figure on their throne issuing orders in these decks. The Knight/King is the Fire element, and the Yod (first letter of the name of God). So he's the initial action, the impulse to start. His power is developed by his relationships to the rest of the royal family (i.e. shagging the Queen). I think you need to think of them as a family (the Forresters, if your a B&B fan ). If you try to think of them as political figures, you get off track and will be confused.

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Hi Similia,

Will this meaning of the King as a Knight apply only to Thoth Tarot? Or will this also apply to any other decks?

Ranzel

Ranzel said:

Hi Similia,

Will this meaning of the King as a Knight apply only to Thoth Tarot? Or will this also apply to any other decks?

Ranzel

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You have to remember that this method didn't start with the Thoth. It started before that with the Golden Dawn, and was applied by Crowley in his deck, and also many other decks based on the GD's methods.

This is just my opinion, some folks will say different, but I apply it to any deck based on the GD structure. That includes all the Golden Dawn decks, the Thoth deck, and the many modern decks based on these. Any deck that has the Knight/King on Horseback, and the Prince in a chariot. The image is I think more important than the title printed at the bottom.

In fact I'd apply the same thinking to a RWS deck, where I see the RWS-Knight as the same character as the King/Knight in the GD/Thoth decks. The RWS King is somewhat equivalent to the GD/Thoth Prince, but not the same.

I wouldn't apply it to a Marseille style deck though where it seems heirarchy is the primary consideration, or others with different court structures. The "modern courts" with Sage's, and Warriors and such would seem to need an approach of their own that fits their own system.

similia said:

You have to remember that this method didn't start with the Thoth. It started before that with the Golden Dawn, and was applied by Crowley in his deck, and also many other decks based on the GD's methods.

This is just my opinion, some folks will say different, but I apply it to any deck based on the GD structure. That includes all the Golden Dawn decks, the Thoth deck, and the many modern decks based on these. Any deck that has the Knight/King on Horseback, and the Prince in a chariot. The image is I think more important than the title printed at the bottom.

In fact I'd apply the same thinking to a RWS deck, where I see the RWS-Knight as the same character as the King/Knight in the GD/Thoth decks. The RWS King is somewhat equivalent to the GD/Thoth Prince, but not the same.

I wouldn't apply it to a Marseille style deck though where it seems heirarchy is the primary consideration, or others with different court structures. The "modern courts" with Sage's, and Warriors and such would seem to need an approach of their own that fits their own system.

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Ok. I'll take note on that.

Many thanks, - Ranzel

Perhaps it's connected to the era when the Golden Dawn was formed? It was a time both of "moving forward" in terms of technological achievements and looking back (the Gothic Revival, for example). This will be very opinionated and, well a bit shallow of me, but I would think that practictioners of ritual magic, at least during that time, would generally have romantic inclinations towards those obscure times which they associated with their subjects (ritual magic). certainly, the idea where the "knight marries the queen and they have the prince and princess as children" seem more attractive to this inclination. more so since this gives more logical, storylike progression to them as well as that there is at least some level of gender equality in the cards - as opposed to having court cards dominated by "male figures" (maybe society's views on women's suffrage then is connected with this?).

With the Thoth (since I don't have any Golden Dawn decks), I get this weird association that the two "higher" court cards resemble a couple where the woman is older than the man. Perhaps this is because of the virility exuded by the knights (which in some logical way makes sense in that men are naturally fertile throughout their life - potency is of course another issue ).

GryffinSong said:

The reason its hard to wrap your head around it is that in some ways it does NOT make sense. A queen might have had a knight as her champion, but he served HER. She was his superior when it came to rank. In real life history, anyway. In terms of rank, a queen is above a knight. The Thoth method (in my opinion) would be like saying that if a woman were the USA president, one of the senators or admirals or something were above her. In certain circumstances they might act as leader, but in overall rank, she's the top.

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But in other ways it makes perfect sense. Think a la Thelema, also remember that Crowley was aware of the need to begin to address an equality of the sexes and a new dynamic / relationship between men and women, socially and magically. Have a look at the relationship of the male and female elements on the Lust card ... The wild male energy is being released, so is the wild female energy ... who is leading who, who is 'serving' who? This dynamic is also portrayed in Crowley's Liber Resh with the Solar Boat depicted with Ra Hoor at the helm and Tahuti at the prow ... both are necassary for the navigation of the boat but both do a different job. It is also an analogy for a new working within the individual psyche. if crowley changes something it is usually for a deep and revalatory reason ... if one can discern it.