How to appreciate Crowley?

I did, in my original post. However, as I stated, I don't consider this account "proof" of anything. The author of the book claims the OTO practices human sacrifice -- though I've certainly never witnessed this, nor actually discussed the possibility with other magicians.

http://www.lermanet.com/scientology-and-occult/scarlet-and-the-beast.htm

Greg Stanton said:

I did, in my original post. However, as I stated, I don't consider this account "proof" of anything. The author of the book claims the OTO practices human sacrifice -- though I've certainly never witnessed this, nor actually discussed the possibility with other magicians.

http://www.lermanet.com/scientology-and-occult/scarlet-and-the-beast.htm

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And this is where I'm having a tough time with your claims. If this transcript of an email is not proof of anything why did you present it along with a exagerated tirade about animal sacrifice. Did you include it just for fun? Or in the hopes that it would act as more fuel on the fire?

Given that the transcript is directly discussing Crowley's claim of sacrificing 150 male children, I find it odd that someone who claims 20 years of experience is even making reference to it. After studying Crowley for 20 years you should know the real meaning behind the claim.

We seem to be in agreement here. I included the reference to bring up the point of Crowley's notoriety -- it was not submitted as proof of anything, and I thought I had made this clear by stating "I have not found any actual evidence to support this".

My story, my experience, is mine. It is part of who I am, and it is true. My assessment of Crowley, his legacy and his worth is also my own, as it is based on my own experience and research. If you are having an emotional response to anything I've said, I think you should explore the possible reasons why this is so.

There is a possibility that some of what I have said also rings true with you, that some of my story is part of your story too. Perhaps your own beliefs, your paradigm, has been shaken -- but maybe you are not ready to look into that corner yet. I wish you well.

Greg Stanton said:

My story, my experience, is mine. It is part of who I am, and it is true. My assessment of Crowley, his legacy and his worth is also my own, as it is based on my own experience and research. If you are having an emotional response to anything I've said, I think you should explore the possible reasons why this is so.

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Like aeon418, i find it odd that anyone with the 20 odd years experience you claim of the oto, gd and crowley would use that reference, it sort of negates your claims of such experience and makes you appear more of a troll with a cock and bull story.

Perhaps you are right. I shouldn't have included this -- poor judgement on my part. Though again, I stated from the start that I had never found any proof for such claims.

Nevertheless, I stand my my opinions. If you are willing to debate those, I'll be happy to engage

Greg Stanton said:

Perhaps you are right. I shouldn't have included this -- poor judgement on my part. Though again, I stated from the start that I had never found any proof for such claims.

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You seem to be missing the point, Greg. It does not matter in the slightest that you have found no proof of infant sacrifice. The fact that you raised the issue is the problem. The whole theme of infant sacrifice is a literary blind to lead the ignorant astray. Any Crowley student worth their salt, with even a fraction of your claimed experience, would know this.

The very fact that you chose to draw attention to what is essentially an non-issue reflects rather badly on you and your claims.

Can't take it back now, and I've already conceded the point.

I'll be happy to debate my points and opinions, or yours. You should be able to debate what I've said without attacking me personally. My character is not the subject of this thread -- Crowley's is.

You yourself have already stated that he performed animal sacrifices at the Abbey of Thelema (a cat and a goat). My point is that is doesn't matter if he performed two or a thousand. Only a monster would cause an animal to suffer needlessly.

Agree or disagree?

Greg Stanton said:

I'll be happy to debate my points and opinions, or yours. You should be able to debate what I've said without attacking me personally. My character is not the subject of this thread -- Crowley's is.

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You made your character the subject of this thread by making some seriously dodgey statements and trying to pass them off as facts.

Greg Stanton said:

You yourself have already stated that he performed animal sacrifices at the Abbey of Thelema (a cat and a goat). My point is that is doesn't matter if he performed two or a thousand. Only a monster would cause an animal to suffer needlessly.

Agree or disagree?

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I am against animal cruelty. But I am not against animal sacrifice. There is a difference. (And just for the record I have never performed it.)

Animal sacrifice is a common theme in many of the worlds religions. From Judaism to Islam. Santeria to Christianity.

Lets take a look in the good book itself. Luke 2:21-24

21. After eight days had passed, it was time to circumcise the child; and he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
22. When the time came for their purification according to the law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord
23. (as it is written in the law of the Lord, 'Every firstborn male shall be designated as Holy to the Lord'),
24. and they offered a sacrifice according to what is stated in the law of the Lord, 'a pair of turtle-doves and two young pigeons.'

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Good Lord almighty!!! Mary and Joseph sacrificing animals for the purfication of Jesus H. Christ and the pleasure of Yahweh. What monsters!! What fiends they must have been.

I made statements that may have been misinformed (or misunderstood), but they were not intentionally deceptive. If I was trying to fool people, I suppose I could have gone back and changed my original post. I won't, because I believe truth is always the best policy.

When people disagree, or have an emotional response to what another is saying, their first impulse is to attack the other person rather than debate their message. My message has not changed, though some of my statements have been tempered by the comments posted here.

Animal sacrifice is a monstrous and barbairc act. That's my opinion. I've no problem killing animals used for food. Killing animals as "food for the gods", or even for the "purification" of Jesus, is despicable.

Greg Stanton said:

Animal sacrifice is a monstrous and barbairc act. That's my opinion. I've no problem killing animals used for food. Killing animals as "food for the gods", or even for the "purification" of Jesus, is despicable.

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What's the difference between killing an animal for food and killing it for another purpose? None at all. Either way the animal is dead. You can convince yourself that eating the animal absolves you from guilt if you like, it makes no difference.

Ever watched Kosher or Halal meat being prepared? You would love that. I believe that according to Islamic tradition that it is considered unlawful to slaughter an unconscious animal. It must be fully aware at the time of it's death.

At least Crowley tried to knock the cat out with Ether beforehand.