Kris Hadar Judgment

tmgrl2

Oh dear...I'll never see the Dodal again without thinking of the vampire teeth...although, I too, see what appears to be vampire teeth as part of the trumpet placed between the lips of the angel.

A quick glance through Judgement in Hadar's book Mon Premier Livre de Tarot...

His take on the figures is that the central figure, arising from the green "tomb," born or intiated into consciousness through baptism of fire, represents the unity of the soul with consciousness.

The other two, he goes on, both with serene faces showing profound and respectful love, are asking for compassion for this newly "conscious" Soul.

He then says that the "flames" descending on the people are the same "tongues of fire" which have transfigured the apostles of Christ at the time of the Pentecost....The Angel announces: there is no past or future...your "sister Soul" is here in the present to assist in your consecration...Since the soul arising from the box is seen from behind, we are asked to see, not a woman or a man, but the unity of both within each of us.

...the above is a paraphrase of my translation of the paragraphs that refer to the "drops."

So...as jmd said...an initiation. I, too, see two drops...dew/water and seven marks that appear to be flames. So, while Hadar himself refers to the flames, it would appear that we have the baptism of water and the transfiguration by fire...both represented by the "drops/flames" above the figures.

(My translation of Hadar's information is meant primarily to share what he has said about this element, not necessarily to indicate that I am taking his words as "gospel" re meaning of the card and the droplets/flames...)

...although, I like the idea of both the water and fire as initiating elements for a Soul elevated to consciousness.

terri
 

venicebard

Greetings, Robert (you laugh funny)

Astrid O said:
~Venicebard, I still don't see how, the placement of the trumpet creates the illusion of fangs.....I do realize, that the fangs aren't intentional, but, I see something on either side of the mouth, and what it is isn't really clear, but it doesn't jump out at me as due to the trumpet placement.
Looks to me like the inside of the opened mouth (though I see you point of view), and it merely never got any dark color applied to it.
le pendu said:
...the undated Heri deck is fascinating to me because it is the only deck I know of that has cards shaped and drawn similar to the Noblet. There are details in it that I would expect that are missing from the Noblet... like the faces on the shoulders of the Charioteer, Noblet missed this!
Yes, the masks of tragedy and comedy (linking bardic tradition to Merkabhah, the ‘Work of the Chariot’)
When I look at these things.. I'm not considering them for "meanings", I'm considering them from the evolutionary changes that occur in the patterns.
Glad your still talking to me anyway, as I respect you immensely.
I believe the Charioteer should have faces on his shoulders because of the overwhelming precedence of it as part of the iconography, not because the faces are.. say.. "Osiris and Isis" or "The Summer King and The Winter King".
Simply to distinguish myself from these, I make them out to be waxing year (winter-spring) and waning year (summer-fall).
The [Noblet] Popess is absolutely ghastly!
Yes, I forgot to mention her!
 

Abrac

tmgrl2--thanks for that info from Hadar's book. I'm reminded of a quote from Jesus, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the Kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the spirit." - John 3:5
 

Abrac

When you compare the water droplettes in The Moon, The Sun, and The Judgment of Noblet, Dodal, and Hadar there are some interesting differences. I'm not sure what the original creators had in mind, if anything, but here are some thoughts.

In The Moon card of all three, the droplettes appear to be attracted to the moon. In a sense the moon and the water are friendly. This is consistent with nature, as in the rising tides. Also, at night, as the air cools, dew is formed by moisture condensing from out of the air. Alchemists consider dew to be the most pure form of water.

Next, in The Suns of both Noblet and Dodal, the drops are still being drawn upward, toward the sun, but in Hadar's they're reversed as if they're being repelled by the sun. This too is natural. As the sun warms the air, the moisture is evaporated and vanishes.

Lastly, in Noblet's Judgment the drops reversed and moving upward. Dodal's has tongues of fire but no water. Hadar's has both, tongues of fire which appears to be descending, and water which appears to be ascending.

While I like the analogy of a dual baptism, I'm not completely comfortable with the imagery of the droplettes in Hadar's card, which seem anyway, to be rising. It seems as if a (water)baptism were being illustrated they would be going downward.

The conclusion I've reached is this. Taking into consideration venicebard's observations about this card illustrating strife, warfare, etc., which I believe have merit, at least in this version, what this cards seems to be illustrating is a refining by fire. The rising water droplettes symbolizing the enlightened or purified soul rising from the tomb of darkness and illusion, which Hadar calls, "initiation." While in the natural world water,(the soul) is repelled by the sun, in the spiritual dimension they attract.
 

venicebard

fools_fool said:
When you compare the water droplettes in The Moon, The Sun, and The Judgment of Noblet, Dodal, and Hadar there are some interesting differences. I'm not sure what the original creators had in mind, if anything...
With regard to LeSoleil, I believe the droplets represent sweat and thus should have their blunt ends down. For I analyze XVIIII as yod and yod as the ‘earth breath’, linking it to the function ‘smelling’ in Sefer Yetzirah, of all of which I honestly believe the makers were aware.

As for the droplets in XVIII (a card I interpret as refuge-in-the-womb), you just explained them to me quite well (thank you):
In The Moon card of all three, the droplettes appear to be attracted to the moon. In a sense the moon and the water are friendly. This is consistent with nature, as in the rising tides. Also, at night, as the air cools, dew is formed by moisture condensing from out of the air. Alchemists consider dew to be the most pure form of water.
(Perhaps refuge comes about from sympathy with that from which one is hiding.)

Regarding Judgement:
...what this cards seems to be illustrating is a refining by fire. The rising water droplettes symbolizing the enlightened or purified soul rising from the tomb of darkness and illusion, which Hadar calls, "initiation." While in the natural world water,(the soul) is repelled by the sun, in the spiritual dimension they attract.
Interesting. What is actually illustrated here, primarily? It is separation, of mortal from angelic. In technical terms, being second-to-last it is the tail of the arrow-of-duality that points away from unity in man’s thinking. It is therefore the result of duality’s separating-itself off from Unity, of which duality is in essence part, which makes it the calling-back by trumpet of souls thus lost... which fits ‘initiation’ quite well. What I’m used to, the Grimaud, doesn’t have droplets but concentrates more on the phalanx of points: I still think the other mere musketry, which is a “refining [of warlike power] by fire” (being somewhat facetious here, as it probably changes the sense in which you meant it)

Diana, I believe, pointed me to putting trumps VI and XX up next one another: they are inversions of each other, with respect to scale, and this effect is somewhat spoilt by 'musketry', methinks.
 

Abrac

The analogy of the droplets to sweat is an interesting one. Obvious actually, but I completely missed it. A curious feature of The Sun, in the Marseilles tradition anyway, is the way the two figures lean into one another, as if cowering in fear. But some of the earliest examples of this card are not of twins, but of a herald carrying a banner, making an announcement;

Cary Sheet:

http://l-pollett.tripod.com/CARY-SM.jpg
http://l-pollett.tripod.com/CARY-IPOTESI01.gif

VieVille:

http://l-pollett.tripod.com/VIEVIL19.jpg

Visconti-Sforza:

http://www.villarevak.org/g_his/xvs_sun.jpg

And of course RWS:

http://www.learntarot.com/bigjpgs/maj19.jpg

But what is being announced? The events to come in the next scene, The Judgment. Notice the fierce countenance on the face of VeiVille's Sun. I would be sweating too! "And being in anguish his(Jesus') sweat was like great drops of blood." - Luke 22:44
 

jmd

The Cary sheet itself only shows just under half a card, and whether or not its left-hand side is completed in the suggested fashion is of course conjecture - though conjecture that certainly fits the extant image.

If it was indeed completed in the manner suggested, it would be unique indeed.

The Vieville depicts a pattern other than the Marseille-style in this and other cards, and I personally do not see why it needs to be taken as a herald 'making an announcement'. Also, the Sun itself seems to be standardly presented, and the 'fierce countenance' of its face pretty standard.

The Visconti-Sforza depiction seems to depict more the movement of the Sun rather than anything else.

In any case, bringing these images, clearly following different representations to the more standard Marseille pattern shows that other early decks had some images at variance with one another. This is, of course, even more evident in the Tower, or in the Star. The Vieville deck is a wonderful deck to show just how different another pattern can be.

But I suppose my main surprise is the suggestion that you describe the two figures as 'lean[ing] into one another, as if cowering in fear'. Though this may indeed be a manner in which to interpret the figures in a specific reading, in terms of its simple iconography, and personally doubt a specifically implied awe (= 'fear') in the imagery.

There is, of course, a traditional correlation between sweat and dew, the latter being described in terms of the former, with both its Christian and alchemical resonance.
 

venicebard

Visconti-Sforza: yes, the sun's movement, definitely.

As for what the herald is announcing, this trump is yod, the mistletoe (or loranthus) at yuletide, and it announces the birth of the heroic, of the 'waxing year' (being where we ourselves celebrate New Year), same thing the twins' dance celebrates. The winter solstice is the only time the twins (heroic waxing year and satiric waning year) are together (at LeSoleil, and in V LePape, the B-birch month that begins there), since by the time the two halves of the year meet again (summer solstice), the heroic waxing year has bravely sacrificed himself in his flower (against demonic powers).

By the way, I recently discovered that the Vieville-type image for LeSoleil could well be alteration of the original to conform to events in Revelations 19:11ff (19:17 even says "I saw an angel standing in the sun"). 19:19 (fitting number): "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army [reason he carries banner?]." The horse was white (19:11).
 

le pendu

Where DID Waite get the iconography for his sun card? I know very little about the deck, so it might be very obvious. Are these the historic versions that have the horserider with banner?:
Vieville
Belgium
Flemish
Cary-Sheet (single character, no horse, banner)

Did Waite usually use any these influences? Or are there other decks that he might have used that I am not thinking of... or was this (doubtful) coincidence?

robert