Who historically put magic in The Magician?

venicebard

Frank Hall probably pegged it.

The meaning in the Marseilles, whose trumps were based on amalgamation of Kelto-bardic and Judao-merkavah (Qabbalistic) meanings for the letters (numbered according to Kelto-bardic [H]AEIOBMPFKGTDNLRS[UKkIiSsAa]), is the levitative power of the silver fir, A ('ah'), which rises to eagle heights by limiting lateral growth in its branches. Jugglers and magicians both have a reputation for levitation, if I am not mistaken.
 

fluffy

Venicebard,

I am most interested in your interpretation of the tarot and its relation to the kelto-bardin/kabbalistic meanings for the letters. I note from another post of yours that all these letters relate to trees. Whilst I understand the link between levitation/magician/juggler in a general way, I am confused at how you can reach the conclusion that the letter representing the silver fir tree can automatically relate to the magician just because there is some small connection with levitation and it is the first letter in the alphabet you quote.

I read your first post on this forum a few times, but I am afraid that I did not fully grasp the intricacys of it. Forgive my confusion.

Love Fluffy
 

full deck

Infinity . . .

Levi conjured the notion of "infinity" from the hat of the magician on his own accord. The idea of mathematical "infinity" in Europe can be traced back to John Wallis (around 1650) in England. Here is a link:

http://scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/infinity.html

That is not to say that Levi's POV is invalid but simply his own way of perceiving the magician.

I really enjoyed "Scion's" digression on Mithra too.
 

venicebard

Fluffy, you're forgiven

The confusion is not in you but in my inadequate expression. The order I listed the bardic letters is numeric order [starting with zero], as listed by one Welsh 'bard' in the book BARDDAS (who thereby gave away the secret that the Welsh used the same numbering as the Irish). The numbers are those connected with the tree-letters SYMBOLICALLY in bardic (i.e. medieval Irish 'neo-druidic') tradition, according to Robert Graves's WHITE GODDESS (end of chapter XVI, p. 295 in my copy).

The link to tarot is that (unbeknownst to modern occultists) these numbers are the numbering of the tarot trumps, the Tarot of Marseilles embodying the entire bardo-Qabbalistic system. The original system was reconstructed by the Gnostics of Provence (the Languedoc), in the time of the Troubadours and Trouveres, by cross-correlating what the Kelts and what the Jews had preserved of a much more ancient trunk both are descended from.

The numbers XVII to XXI had to be deduced but were fairly obvious.
 

f. silvestris

Am I the only person here who feels that Occam's Razor is a useful tool in Tarot study?

The original question was, after all, 'Who historically put magic in The Magician?'
 

Rosanne

LOL THe Principle of Parsimony- I oft need this when I study Tarot and rush of in ever decreasing concentric circles to land up .... somewhere else entirely. Thank you for that f.Silvestris.~Rosanne
 

fluffy

full deck said:
Levi conjured the notion of "infinity" from the hat of the magician on his own accord. The idea of "infinity" in Europe can be traced back to John Wallis (around 1650) in England. Here is a link:

http://scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/infinity.html

That is not to say that Levi's POV is invalid but simply his own way of perceiving the magician.

I really enjoyed "Scion's" digression on Mithra too.

I also enjoyed Scions digression,Fulldeck and agree with your opinion on Levi. Levi quoted the old testament God when refering to the juggler/magician "i am what I am" and referred him to the master magician who is "invested with a species of relative omnipotence and can operate superhumanly - that is after a manner which transends the normal possibility of men" Levi Doctrine & Ritual 29-30. I believe that then the GD probably took this view of the juggler from Levi and it stuck! Before this I am not sure whether or not he was ever considered "magical" in any way, although perhaps he was considered an strange.

Sometimes peoples' interesting questions/replies make me wander off topic - sorry if this annoys anyone! Venicebard many thanks for your reply to my query.

Love Fluffy
 

jmd

Poor old William of Ockham, his epistemological notions of authority, reason, and experience being slowly transformed, over the centuries, to a sharpened small blade to cut out even that which this Fransiscan scholar would have keenly valued and thought worthy of consideration :)

There is probably for many of us, a fine line between areas of investigation that we consider worthy of further work, and those areas that seem weirdly obscure and remote (or even unlikely).

Part of the value of investigating, by those who have the inclination, that which at first appears remotely unrelated is that insights into items of direct relevance often come to surface.

Even this invocation of William of Ockham, for example, calls to mind that here we have someone working around the time that would have his work influential during the earliest historical evidence of Tarot as Tarot, and that, further, he was directly influential in the Reformation that was to take place some time later than his 13th/14th century life.
 

le pendu

f. silvestris said:
Am I the only person here who feels that Occam's Razor is a useful tool in Tarot study?

The original question was, after all, 'Who historically put magic in The Magician?'

I'm with you f. silvestris!

But I do love making connections, wandering here and there, I just hate when theories and ideas are stated in a factual manner, rather than as intriguing possibilities.

robert
 

kwaw

full deck said:
The idea of "infinity" in Europe can be traced back to John Wallis (around 1650) in England. Here is a link:

http://scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/infinity.html

The use of the symbol like an 8 on its side goes back to John Wallis. The idea of 'infinity' in Europe has a somewhat longer history;)


Kwaw