Are you a Flat World Society Member?

Fulgour

no pointy heads on a flat earth

I've noticed that the same people who insist
that something like the Tarot was introduced
as a game in 15th Century Italy also insist on
it being Christian in origin ~that's very funny.

But isn't it amazing to discover Gypsies living
in the medieval remnants of ancient Babylon.
Maybe they were looking for a 'Romish' Pope?
 

kwaw

Moongold said:
Many of the posts in the history and iconography forum are not written in an engaging way. They may be interesting to those who participate but they're not really to those who want to learn and who may not yet have reached the level of detail that you guys have.

People posting in the history section are people interested in exploring history, it is not about teachers trying to engage students. If you want to learn then learn, it is not the responsibility of those posting in the history forum to 'teach', most of us are there because we are interested in learning too and sharing information, references and ideas as fellow students and researchers of tarot history, not as teachers giving history lessons [in fact it is highly likely that anyone who came in to 'teach' would get very short shrift or at least a lot of critical questioning upon their qualification to 'teach']. Really the history as is known is easy to learn, the rest is fellow enthusiasts sharing research and information and debating speculations and probabilities that arise from such, followed by examining further avenues of research.

Kwaw
 

Huck

... :) Perhaps time to return to the basic topic of the thread : "Are you a Flat world society?"

... if you ask me personally, I would say: "No."

Against all Viking helmets on New Zealand I prefer the probable against the not probable.

When I see in a given time 100 extant documents in Italy about Tarot similar objects and not one of France, I conclude. likely the game comes from Italy.
France as starting place is not impossible, but it is likely not the place of origin.
And when I start to research, I would research there, where it is already probable to find more, and that's where already something was found. Perhaps with some luck I find there a link, which for instance points to France .. what we actualy did.

1449: Marcello sends a deck to Rene d'Anjou - in France. A very early Trionfi deck in France.

An already known fact, but mostly overlooked in discussions. And where one thing is, there is often more (I remember the fact, that I occasionally asked in the Marseille forum for evidence of playing cards in early France, but didn't get a single reply .. :) ... and I still would enjoy, if somebody could add something of relevance )

http://trionfi.com/0/p/03/

1337 Marseille "Quod nulla persona audeat nec presumat ludere et taxillos, nec ad paginas ad eyssuchum". - This passage in the statutes of the abbey St. Victor in Marseille is debated in its value.

1369 Paris
Ordinance forbade various games, but did not mention cards. A similar ordinance in 1377 included cards. (P 35, 37; GT 11; K I:24.)

1377 Paris
"1377 PARIS Ordinance forbade card games on workdays." Michael Hurst's entry to 1377 Paris (from Parlett and Dummett) is also given as:
"En tout cas, on trouve mention expresse des cartes en 1377, quand le Prévôt de Paris défend de jouer les jours ouvrables. « Paumes, boules, cartes, dés, quilles »" (Source)
Translation: - "In any case, explicit mention of cards is found in 1377, when the Provost of Paris forbade playing on working days 'Palms, balls, cards, dice, bowling'" (as source is given Gerard van Rijnberk, _Le Tarot, histoire, iconographie, ésotérisme_, (rpt. Trédaniel, 1981)).
Note Ross Caldwell: I still don't know the original source. D'Allemagne (1906) apparently doesn't know it.

1381 Marseille

"On the 30th of August 1381, Jacques Jean, son of a Marseille merchant, about to embark for Alexandria, promises to abstain from games of chance (3) among which are cited cards: nahipi." ("La carte à jouer en languedoc des origines à 1800" (Toulouse, 1974) p. 7)."

1382 Lille An ordinance of the city of Lille, dated 1382, when Lille belonged to France, forbade various games including dice and "quartes" (an early word for cards). (Simon Wintle) "Que nuls se ne soit si hardis, uns ne aultres quelz que il soit, qui depuis maintenant en avant en ceste ville jueche (joue) de jour ne de nuit as "dez, as taiules, as quartes ne a nul autre geu quelconques (S p. 63, refering to R. d'Allemagne II, p. 158).

1392 Paris
Account book for King Charles VI, "Given to Jacquemin Gringonneur, painter, for three packs of cards, gilt and colored, and variously ornamented, for the amusement of the king, fifty-six sols of Paris." These are not the so-called Gringonneur cards, aka Charles VI cards, which are a late fifteenth-century Ferrarese Tarot deck. These three decks might be better compared to the 1440 Tortona deck. (K I:24; GT 65-66; P 37.)
(Ross Gregory Caldwell has researched in detail the Gringonneur-entry and its long being taken as the oldest reference to Tarotcards, compare his article).

1393 Paris
An anonymous describes in "Menagier de Paris" the life and occupations of Roman women in old times by refereing to the occupations of noble womem in his own time: ".. les unes divisans, les autres jouans au bric, les autres a qui fery, les autres a pince-merille, les autres jouans aux cartes et aux autres jeux d'esbatemens avecques leurs voisines ..." The reporting Schreiber (1937) refers to Pere Menestrier, Bibliotheque curieuse et instructive, Trevoux 1704, vol. II., p.174) (S p. 68)

1396 Paris
"At the French court a hawker or maker of cases, Guion Groslet appears in the account books of 1396 for having sold an estuy for the cards of Queen Isabelle of Bavaria (Charles VI's wife)." (Ortalli 178) Schreiber notes, that the entry of Hemon Raguier reads: "A Guiot Groslet, gaingnier, un estuy (etui) pour mettre les cartes de la royne, le petiz bastonnez d'ivoire et les roolles de parchemin 12 sols parisins." (S p. 68.)

1397 Paris
Prohibition against card playing. (K I:24.) This may be the same prohibition referred to by Ortalli, "when the prevot of Paris forbade the gens de metier from playing cards on working days." (Ortalli 178.)
Schreiber notes, that this passage is given by many French sources, but that he couldn't detect any, which gives the source for it. Although he himself controlled various possible sources, he couldn't detect it. He adds, that surprizingly in France there is no other card prohibition till 1541 (it seems, that Schreiber isn't aware of the entry to Paris 1377 and Lille 1382)(S p. 68/69).

1400 Franciscan order:
According to Schreiber the Franciscan Oliver Maillardus (died 1502) writes in the 20th speech of the "Quadregesimale opus Parissii predicatum": "Videatis quod habetis in statutis vestris, nunquid anno 1400 fuit prohibitum quod omnes ludi chartarum et sic aliis expellerentur et comburerentur: et qui inventus esset solvere solid. par." (Schreiber notes: In the printed edition of the Sermones of 1503, Lyon, on page 123). Indeed, as Schreiber adds, in the chapter 7, § 30 of the "Statuta tribus ordinibus beati Francisci necessaria" is given: "Quicunque frater deprehensus fuerit tunicam, pecuniam vel res alias ludere ad taxillos vel cartas seu alearum ludos: pena carceris puniatur.", but Schreiber interpretes, that this edict is from begin of 16th century and he has doubts about the older rules in the order. (S p. 69)

1404 Langres
The bishop of Langres, cardinal Louis de Bar (1396 - 1413) gave a careful game prohibition, in which also playing cards are considered: "Prohibemus clericis et viris ecclesiasticis, potissime in sacris ordinibus constitutis, et maxime sacerdotibus et curatis, ne omnino ludant ad taxillos, ad aleas, ad trinquetum, quod aliter nominatur ad punctum stacarii, neque ad CARTAS, neque ad stophum, dictum a la paulme, neque ad neque ad iactum lapidis, ad saltum, ad choreas, neque ad clipeum, neque cum fistula vel aliis musicalibus instrumentis ... non ludant etiam ad marellas, ad bolas, ad cursum vel currendum in campo .., ad iaculandum vel gladiandum, ... ad quillas, vel torneamenta seu iostas, ... in ludo quo dicitur charevari, ... ad ludom scatorum, nisi forsan raro (Laurentii Bochelli (Bouchel), Decreta ecclesia Gallicanae, Paris 1609, p. 1025). Schreiber adds, that Langres is at this time a selfadministrated bistum between Burgund and Lothringia (not belonging to FRance). (S 69/70)

1408 Orleans
in an inventory of the Duke and Duchess of Orleans, listing "ung jeu de quartes sarrasines and unes quartes de Lombardie (‘one pack of Saracen cards; one cards of Lombardy’)". (GT 42.)(S p. 70)
Schreiber adds in a footnote (refering to V. Gay, p. 286), that Louis d'Orleans, brother of the French king Charles VI., must have been a "Spielratte allerersten Ranges" ("first class gambling rat"): In the possession of baron de Joursanvault (Catalogue des Archives de M. le bn. de J., Paris 1838, vol. I, p. 103 - 105) were various bills about gambling losses of the duke. 1394 he lost in the "jeu de la paume" 200 livres de tournois; 1396 in the "jeu de echaiz" "une aulmure de gris a chanoine, further 1200 fr. in the "jeue de la bille" and other sums; 1397 he paid back various sums, which were lend to play "aux tables" and "au glic", also he had to cover various sums and losses to various persons.

1408 Paris
Court records describe con artists using cards in a simple scam "with a psychological resemblance to Three-card Monte." (Giobbi; P 73.)

1423 Angers (then belonging to the dukedom Anjou):
Bishop Harduin of Angers edicts synodal statutes "Prohibemus etiam universis et singulis subditis tam ecclesiasticis quam saecularibus ne ipsi ad taxillos, cartas et alios sortis ludos ludere et mercatoribus, ne taxillos et allos hujusmodi ludorum instrumenta vendere (Martene et Durand, Thesaurus novus anecdotum seu collectio monument. et diplom., Paris 1717, vol 4, sp. 528). The edict is of importance, as it names card playing as a game of luck and it notes, that card decks could be bought by traders. (S p. 70)

1427 Tournai
Two card producers are recorded in the city, Michel de Noel (1427 - 1442) and Phillippe de Bos (1427 - 1450). In the second half of the 15th century other names follow (partly relatives of the earlier producers), Tournay becomes a major playing card production location in Flemish countries. (S p. 64 and 134)

1431 Avignon
First French playing card producer mentioned (after Gringonneur 1393)

1441 Avignon
Bishop Alanus of Avignon gives some statutes "... statuimus et ordinamus, quod si quis clericus vel ecclesiastica persona ad ludos taxillorum, alearum vel cartarum publice vel occulte ... ludere praesumbit". (S p. 70)

1444 Lyon
First card producer in the city.

1449 Monselice / Isabelle de Lorraine
Letter and parcel of the Venetian provvedittore Iacopo Antonoio Marcello to Isabelle of Lorraine (wife of Rene d'Anjou), in which he sends the Michelino deck and another Trionfi deck to France (complex article).

1454 Maria of Anjou:
J. Bochetel (royal secretary and treasurer) made some entries in the account books of the royal household of Maria of Anjou (wife of Charles VII. and Queen of France, mother of Louis XI. and sister of Renee d'Anjou - lived from 1404 - 1463): "a Guilleaume Bouchier, marchant da Chinon, pour 2 jeux des quartes et 200 espingles (playing jetons) delivret audit Seigneur (Charles VII. de France) pour jouer et soy esbatre 5 sols tournois." A little later: "A Guyon Sergent, mercier demeurant a Saint-Aignan, pour 3 paires (decks) de quartes a jouer 5 sold tournois". And: "A Colas Gresle, mercier suivant la Cour, pour 2 jeux de quartes delivrez a MdS (Charles VII. de France) pour jouer et soy esbatre 4. d. tournois." And: "A Guillemin Moreau, appothicaire de Chinon, pour 2 jeux des quartes et demier millier d'espingles delivrez a mad. dame (Madeleine de France) pour jouer et soy esbatre 5 sols 4 d." And: "pour deux autres jeux 3 s. 4 d" (Schreiber refers to V. Gay, p. 286) (S p. 71).

1457 Aix de la Provence:
In the inventory of a recently died merchant are noted "Item sex doudenas (72) ludorum cartarum sive de juos de de Cartas ascendunt flrenum unum grosses tres" (S p. 71, refers to R. d'Allemagne II, p. 525)

1458 Lille, Philipp le Bon:
Philipp changes the older prohibition (from 1382) by declaring his "bien archier de corps" Guille de Soomont, dit le Mire, as "fermier des jeux de brelancq, tablez, boulletz, dez, quartes, quilles et autres jeux". Any citizen could get allowance - against a fee - to make this games at his home (S p. 64 refers to R. d'Allemagne II, p. 486).

1464 France
Translation of St. Bernardine’s 1423 sermon adds mention of the game of 31, precursor to the modern game of 21. (P 80.)

1465 Toulouse
"we can say, what is not surprising, that the game [Tarot] was not yet known in France in 1465, since the statutes [Statuta nayperiorum], drawn up in that year, of the earliest association of master cardmakers in the whole of France, that of Toulouse, speak of naips sive cartas but make no mention of triumphi.”

1469 Charlotte, Queen of France (wife of Louis XI.)
Bill about "2 jeux des cartes pour esbatre nosd. dames 5 sols tournois" (S p. 71 refering to R. d'Allemagne, II, p. 525)

1476 Lyon, Rene d'Anjou:
Rene buys "ung jeu de cartes de Lion pour Hellene", the price is 11 gros d'argent.

1482 France
According to the Dictionnaire de l’ancienne langue française, “…the earliest recorded use of the word [triumphe] in French as the name of a card game dates from as early as 1482. Unfortunately, we cannot be certain that these references are to games played with the Tarot pack.” Dummett considers it likely that this reference does refer to Tarot, which would thereby have been in France by about 1480. Another probable early reference to Tarot in France is from Lorraine, 1496, and one of the earliest unambiguous mentions of Tarot in France is to their manufacture at Lyons, in 1507. (GT 84; TT 50.)

1495/96 Gambling results of Rene II.
Bills of the Lothringian court for King Rene II: "Au Roy, le 29 avril pour jouer au triumphe a Vezelise (capital of the Kanton, Nancy) deux francs" "Encore audit seigneur roy le 1'er mai pour jouer audit triumphe a Vezelise deux florins d'ors".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



French card producers till 1500
- as noted by Schreiber (1937) refering to d'Allemagne

Avignon Limoges Lyon Romans Rouen Toulouse Troyes
- 1450 2 2 2 - - - -
1451 - 1460 - - - - - - 1
1461 - 1470 2 2 4 - - 7 -
1471 - 1480 1 3 11 - - 4 -
1481 - 1490 2 - 16 1 - 1 -
1491 - 1500 12 - 35 - 1 9 -


Avignon
1431 Nicolas de Ambrosiis
1431 Odet Bouscarle
1461 Jean Benedicti
1462 Raynaud Silvi
1479 Antoine de Illiceto
1481 Jean Barati (- 1521)
1483 Jean Chaudet (- 1496)
1491 Antoine Cotonis
1491 Hatelet de la Cour
1492 Jean Banneti (Barati ?)
1492 Benoist Morelli
1492 Etienne Clerici (- 1495)
1493 Guy Duchatel
1493 Jean Fort (Forst - 1506)
1493 Antoine Seychel
1493 Jean de Met (Mes - 1519)
1494 Jean Lagiere
1498 Arnaud Filin
1499 Charles Charvin (- 1516)

Limoges
1427 Jehan Roy (- 1461)
1444 Jean Faure (- 1479)
1466 Etienne Lasendon (- 1468)
1469 Jean Rivaud (Riveau - 1472)
1479 Pierre de Beaumon dit Lobre
1479 Jean Molet
1479 Eustache Molet (Motet - 1489)

Lyon
1444 (1439 ?) James Dubois (tailleir de molles de cartes - 1481)
1446 Janin de Navarre (- 1458)
1463 Pierre de Lan (fayseur des moles des cartes - 1493)
1465 Pierre Perrin (faiseur des moles des cartes - 1475)
1467 Pierre Bordet (- 1477)
1467 Humbert Guerin (- 1488)
1472 Jacques (- 1475)
1472 Jacques de Nyves (- 1480)
1472 Jehan Morel (- 1480)
1473 Jehan Siliquin
1475 Etienne (- 1475)
1478 Veuve Pierre Bordet
1479 Hugonin Turin (1518)
1480 Andre Alexandre (- 1487)
1480 Guilleaume Gormy (- 1493)
1480 Jean Goyrand (- 1500)
1480 Jehan Guerin
1480 Gilles Savoure (1506)
1482 Jacques Vise (- 1517)
1484 Louis de Luxembourg (faiseur de moules de quartes - 1514)
1485 Francois Clerc (- 1496)
1485 Pierre Daize (- 1532)
1485 Jehan de Dale (- 1524)
1485 Claude Dardillier (- 1487)
1485 Pierre Davignon
1485 Pierre Gayon (- 1515)
1485 Francois Javelot (- 1535)
1485 Pierre Monier
1485 Guilleaume Montet (- 1499)
1485 Jehan Moret (Morel? - 1487)
1485 Claude Pellet (- 1518)
1487 Jehan Marchera
1487 Jehan Mathias (- 1490)
1488 Francois Gonond (- 1490)
1491 Andre Perosset (tailleur de molles - 1524)
1491 Gilles Le Riche (tailleur de molles de cartes - 1517)
1492 Claude de la Faye (- 1496)
1492 Tevenet (- 1493)
1493 Jean des Costes dit Abram (- 1494)
1493 Antoine (- 1507)
1493 Benoit de Bibo (- 1506)
1493 Ame Bolache (Brulache - 1530)
1493 Claude Boyssan
1493 Pierre Decy
1493 Pierre de Limoges
1493 Pierre Doure (- 1499)
1493 Benoit Delafont (- 1524)
1493 Humbert Freone (- 1514)
1493 Girard (- 1506)
1493 Claude Guerin (- 1535)
1493 Pierre Mathieu (- 1529)
1493 Pierre Molliere (- 1506)
1493 Gonin Navarre
1493 Pierre Noir (- 1518)
1493 Piere Pellet (- 1520)
1493 Jehan Personne (- 1499)
1493 Jehan Petit (- 1512)
1493 Claude Pinet (- 1524)
1493 Andre Proujet
1493 Jehan de Saint-Priest (- 1503)
1493 Jean Thibaut
1493 Pierre Tieullier
1493 Claude Vienno
1494 Barthelemy Dore (- 1498)
1496 Barthelemy Monnier (- 1512)
1496 Jean Mathieu (- 1506)
1498 Pierre Duplat (- 1524
1498 Claude Matthieu (- 1506)
1499 Jehan de Troye

Romans
1490 Du Chastel (- 1510)

Rouen
1491 Hubert Benest
1508 Vulmier

Toulouse
1465 Collin Totaysa (- 1467)
1465 Guilhermus Andrieu (- 1471)
1466 Jean de Vignieres (Vinhas - 1467)
1466 Jean Denbedat (Dinbudit - 1467)
1465 Cortade Guiraud (- 1477)
1467 Collin Lecheran
1467 Claude Andrieu (- 1473)
1473 Andrea Pradia ( - 1494)
1477 Bernard Andrieu (- 1479)
1477 Jacobus Bocguier (- 1503)
1480 Bonshomme de Lona (- 1495)
1484 Petrus Ayreth
1494 Guilhermus Bigan (- 1495)
1495 Anthony Guiraud
1495 Jehan Guiraud (- 1518)
1495 Bernadin Pegot
1495 Estienne Melet (- 1518)
1495 Antoine de Logiriera (- 1518)
1499 Anthony Boscoura
1499 Jehan du Val
1499 Guilhaumot

Troyes
1451 le faiseur de cartes peintes
1473 Jean Boudoin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


References:

Kaplan, Stuart. The Encyclopedia of Tarot I. U.S. Games Systems Inc., 1978. (K I)

Dummett, Michael. The Game of Tarot. Duckworth, 1980. (GT)

Parlett, David. The Oxford Guide to Card Games. Oxford University Press, 1990. (P)

Ortalli, Gherardo. "The Prince and the playing cards. The Este family and the role of the courts at the time of the Kartenspiel-Invasion", Ludica 2: Annali di storia e civiltà del gioco. Fondazione Bennetton Studi Ricerche, 1996.

Schreiber W. L. (S). "Die ältesten Spielkarten und die auf das Kartenspiel Bezug habenden Urkunden des 14. und 15. Jahrhunderts." (1937)


###################

And just repeating: "... and I still would enjoy, if somebody could add something of relevance " ... even helmets of Vikings, if somehow extant and really related to playing cards.
 

Fulgour

The "Academy" has Responded

Umbrae said:
Yup. Couldn’t agree more.
Hey, Umbrae ~ I think our posts are too short!
Let's start a thread on Gypsies and get plated.
 

Moongold

kwaw said:
People posting in the history section are people interested in history, it is not about teachers trying to engage students. If you want to learn then learn, it is not the responsibility of those posting in the history forum to 'teach', most of us are there because we are interested in learning too and sharing information and ideas as fellow students and researchers of tarot history, not as teachers [in fact it is highly likely that anyone who came in to 'teach' would get very short shrift].

Kwaw
I enjoy the writing in your journals because it is systematic and one can follow the themes more easily.

My own Masters thesis was an analytical history and I enjoy writing, but once again that was a systematic, coherent whole.

I don't see you as teachers but as explorers, and it is hard to get others to come with you if there is little attempt to engage. Some writers do. There have been some superb threads - my apologies for not acknowledging that initially. There was one thread some years ago called The language of the birds which was lyrical and informative and I went back to it again and again. Engaging people and bringing them with you is not teaching per se but communication.

Anyway, it is worth mentioning as something which might make the work of all of you a little more accessible to the common man. I always imagined that the Marseille was the tarot of the common man.
 

kwaw

Moongold said:
Engaging people and bringing them with you is not teaching per se but communication.


Point taken, but nonetheless while it can be done it is not i think the best format or forum for 'exposition'. Usually in history forum most posts are not about an exposition, but of sharing information and ideas. But certainly exposition takes place. Ross recently made very good post [not sure if it was on history forum, but wherever could have been and very good]. Glad you enjoy my journals, thanks for the mention, nice to have any feedback from someone who has read them. Was working on tarot symbolism journal, but have been sidetracked a little here to perhaps prepare and add an entry on zero history and symbolism in 'number symbolism' journal, if nothing else to have something to refer to without having to repeat myself with answering same questions, which make appear I am obsessed with one subject! And to give short reference without charge of ignoring questions I have answered a thousand times before and am tired of repeating.

Kwaw
 

Rosanne

Thanks Huck for the timeline. I find it interesting that the same year the edict against playing cards 1377 The Papacy returned to Rome. What I was wondering (from anybody) as the first printing press with types had not been built- How did the population know about the edicts and how was the information sent from place to place (in Paris i.e)? It usually takes an interminably long time for any official red tape to get on 'the books' as it were. Why were week days banned and not Sunday? Was it something to with the rising of the peasants in France? Or there was War with England? Were there Italian soldiers still in France? Were cards a part of the soldiers mess kit and they played throughout the week on their R & R. It was only 25 years or so since the Black death hit Europe and fortune telling was probably very important to those left behind. I know these questions are very parasitic of me, but here I am with my Viking Helmet- the improbable Coloniser's pisspot and I wonder. I will have to consider a History degree to while away my time- but I have to wade through English History before I get to anything remotely interesting as Tarot. How about a little speculation?
As an aside to this discussion- when the Helmet was found- I got tide charts and land Conservation estimates of the growth of sand dunes, and geograpic history of the area to peruse (dry ol stuff) and I found out that the helmet was found at the same depth as the Swamp Kauri (buried Forest) that the excavator was digging for. Made me go 'wow! How did that happen' Those trees had been covered in sand and tidal mud for about 4000 years. There also was what looked like dressed timber (ship planks?) but the Kauri Tree Hunter wanted the swamp wood and didn't give a tinkers cuss for History. Thought he might make a buck for the Helmet though :D ~Rosanne
 

Huck

Rosanne said:
Thanks Huck for the timeline. I find it interesting that the same year the edict against playing cards 1377 The Papacy returned to Rome.

It's indeed interesting, but the first prohibition occured in Florence and this was total prohibition. The Paris ordonance looks like a mild form, just to keep normal work going on. Actually it seems, that there were never hard prohibition in France - at least these documents are not recorded.
The Florence prohibition is more interesting, cause Florence protested agains the pope alrady in 1375. They didn't love, that he returned back. He came in January (to Rome) and the prohibition followed in March. It seems, as if the new cards accompanied the pope (or people, who accompanied the pope). An playing card invasion from Spain via France seems a logical background.

What I was wondering (from anybody) as the first printing press with types had not been built- How did the population know about the edicts and how was the information sent from place to place (in Paris i.e)?

Normal talking, as they did it centuries before. Likely somebody annouced it with loud voice. As people couldn't read often enough ... the only way.

It usually takes an interminably long time for any official red tape to get on 'the books' as it were. Why were week days banned and not Sunday?

To keep work going on. Really not a problem to understand that. Most prohibitions were forms with certain conditions. "It is allowed to play, but not allowed to play higher than xxx ... " " It is not allowed to play at specific places.. " " It is only allowed at specific places ..." "It is allowed at specific days" "It is not allowed at specific days." "It is only allowed for guests".
Really hard conditions are not often known in France in all 15th century.

Italy was much more rigid, alöthough not everywhere. Italy had greater cities than France. More population, this might be a natural expanation. And perhaps there were not so much cards ... so the whole was no such a big problem. Southern Italy seems
to have more prohibition than Northern Italy.

Was it something to with the rising of the peasants in France?
I don't know.
Or there was War with England?
There was war with England, though not a very aggressive phase for the moment in 1377. The black prince had died, and the English was going to die, too.
There were curiously no playing cards in England recorded till 1461 (after the 100 years war). Perhaps playing cards were perceived as French customs and were not accepted - cause the war. And card playing reached all Northern states rather late. Maybe it had also something to do with paper mills and paper. It did not spread from one moment to the other. It followed the major trade routes.
There are a lot of most natural rules, but often somehow unknown rules. Europe was not populated everywhere to the same degree. It is not so, that every history books wants to tell you about playing cards. And that is told, is often enough "only conclusion" and often enough deadly wrong, just globalizing summaries which lost contact to reality.

Were there Italian soldiers still in France?

What were they looking for? Were Italian soldiers in France? You think in Avignon? Avignon was not political France then, as far I know.

Were cards a part of the soldiers mess kit and they played throughout the week on their R & R.
What is an R&R? Had the soldiers playing cards? Were there soldiers? How was this soldiers' system? I thought, there were knights.

You can start to think, when you've something "positively". A document somewhere. Then you can start to encircle the object. What is in the document? Who did what, exploring the details. Put in in relation to something, what you already know and where you've a chance to explore it.

Well, the cards for 14th century are often bad, not too much to read in them. Cards for 15th century are better, more related stuff. Mankind has more written then, generally.
 

Rosanne

Thank you Huck for that information. That is exactly what I like to glean from History- someone who makes it alive for me.
I was making jest with R & R (it means rest and recreation) I think soldiers who fought for the Knights and Kings, would have played cards. Even today in a soldiers kit is often a Card Pack. It is very portable.
I think the people who travelled with the Pope would have had cards also. It was a long trip back and forth when they had to go on foot with all the luggage. Cards appeared in England after the Hundred year War was over? -well that makes sense. The camp followers also went home to England after the War.
Anyway you have given me avenues to read more. I have great access to Church history- not so much to secular history. In 1492 Rodrigo Borgia became Pope- it will be interesting to read about his term of Office and the edicts he championed. I will continue to look for clues. I appreciate the continual effort you put into your posts and its readability for me the 'curious one' who likes to read a little conjecture as well. ~Rosanne
 

Huck

Rosanne said:
Thank you Huck for that information. That is exactly what I like to glean from History- someone who makes it alive for me.
I was making jest with R & R (it means rest and recreation) I think soldiers who fought for the Knights and Kings, would have played cards. Even today in a soldiers kit is often a Card Pack. It is very portable.
I think the people who travelled with the Pope would have had cards also. It was a long trip back and forth when they had to go on foot with all the luggage. Cards appeared in England after the Hundred year War was over? -well that makes sense. The camp followers also went home to England after the War.
Anyway you have given me avenues to read more. I have great access to Church history- not so much to secular history. In 1492 Rodrigo Borgia became Pope- it will be interesting to read about his term of Office and the edicts he championed. I will continue to look for clues. I appreciate the continual effort you put into your posts and its readability for me the 'curious one' who likes to read a little conjecture as well. ~Rosanne

The distribution number of cards in 1377 can't have been very big in 1377. They're too young, not enough time to produce them. But likely people got the idea and painted cards for own use in the quick way. Judging from the manuscript of Johannes of Rheinfelden there was enthusiastic "innocent" joy and surprize about the new fun ... and then immediately some people were found which reacted with prohibitions. It's hard to say, how this worked and how effective the prohibition were ... well, we know, that it finally didn't work.
In 1414 we have a single cardmaker in Nurremberg. And Nurremberg has a paper mill and generally best conditions for card production and it becomes famous for card production in 15th century with 38 card makers known from 1414 - 1500. But only one first cardmaker in 1414.
Alright, it's assumed that the other professions governed the production before. But there is a great darkness about an estimation of the number which was produced.
Perhaps the early prohibitions were more effective, than we can imagine.