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Its actually simple . Buddhism depicts incarnation as basically suffering caused by attachment.

Its not black magic ... its 'black school' , magic/k, religion or philosophy.

Any system such as Buddhism is seen as 'black' . The systems that affirm life and that incarnation was a choice of spirit entering into the experience willingly and sees good purpose and development from it ... and realises 'existence can be pure joy' is the 'white' school.

This is different from pop ' black magic/sorcery' ( eg. works of destruction ) hence the different terms 'black school' ( of magic religion or philosophy) as opposed to 'black magic / sorcery.

Crowley's take on it was, any magick not conforming with your own True Will is 'black magic'.

So, if your True Will is to experience austerities , a magic spell to win the lottery would be black magic. Conversely, if your Will is to experience wealth then giving it all away and living in poverty would be black magic. That is a different thing from ones underlying base or philosophical approach .
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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Its actually simple . Buddhism depicts incarnation as basically suffering caused by attachment.

Its not black magic ... its 'black school' , magic/k, religion or philosophy.

Any system such as Buddhism is seen as 'black' . The systems that affirm life and that incarnation was a choice of spirit entering into the experience willingly and sees good purpose and development from it ... and realises 'existence can be pure joy' is the 'white' school.

This is different from pop ' black magic/sorcery' ( eg. works of destruction ) hence the different terms 'black school' ( of magic religion or philosophy) as opposed to 'black magic / sorcery.

Crowley's take on it was, any magick not conforming with your own True Will is 'black magic'.

So, if your True Will is to experience austerities , a magic spell to win the lottery would be black magic. Conversely, if your Will is to experience wealth then giving it all away and living in poverty would be black magic. That is a different thing from ones underlying base or philosophical approach .
Ahh, I see, in relation to Buddhism it is not black magic as such and presumably then Gnostics who renounce the flesh are also Black school rather than black magick.
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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Gnostic can mean ' direct communication " , meaning you can have your own experience with the divine and do not need to do it through priests or intervention .

It can also be a depressive anti life position, where this world is seen as bad, removed from heaven and get back there as soon as you can. Some even taught sex was bad as increased life and human suffering . Unfortunately, this meant any specific gnostic cult would have died out in one generation so they had to make 'adjustments' , like sex was okay only in marriage and for the purpose of making more gnostic cultists.
I used to think gnostic means "unknown", and it originates from their belief "God is unknown".

In some sense, this life is quite depressing, when you think of it frankly. Even the richest, most powerful, famous, and clever people, they all have to get old through time sooner or later, and must die in the end. And no one knows where they are heading to, and will end up after the deaths.

And we all know that it will be also our own fate, and your off-springs', their off-springs ..... Sometimes you feel, nothing in life is very meaningful from that respect, hence some of us seek for meanings of life, God (who could answer and save us to / from all these mysteries and tragedies in life) and seek immortality through Religion.

In this respect, the gnostics are quite realistic about life and the world, I would feel. They are not buttering up anything as if all is well and good, and everyone will live happily forever, and life is hunky dory affair no matter what like some other religions do.

After the end of the ancient Greco Roman era, somehow the main stream religions failed to give answers to all these questions and problems of general public, hence some of them started looking into under world religion such as gnostics. Rather than going with the priests and vicars and the establishments of the temples, churches and systems, they have seek to meet the God via more direct methods - ritual magics under the gnostic beliefs.

You need to be reunited with God, get enlightened with true knowledge, and be saved from all the troubles in this world, and gain immortality, they would say. So after all they are not all that negative bunch, as one might think.

Anti sex? - well some of them perhaps, but not all of them were, I believe.



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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
They are termed 'black school' .... white, yellow and red school is much more to my liking ..... anything but that 'black magic' thanks !


(plus you get to contact 'divinity' and appreciate and enjoy the life you (after all) must have chosen for yourself to experience and learn about . )

http://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-w...rs/mwt_06.html
Was it Crowley who termed it? If so, it sounds contradictory, because a few of his Magickal rituals originate from gnostics, I was told.
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Ahh, I see, in relation to Buddhism it is not black magic as such and presumably then Gnostics who renounce the flesh are also Black school rather than black magick.
Thats how I see it . But there are 'white school gnostics' as well. I am probably one . . . .

When I am in a good mood
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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
I used to think gnostic means "unknown", and it originates from their belief "God is unknown".
No, it means the opposite , a derivative of gnosis - knowledge ; Gnosis is the common Greek noun for knowledge (in the nominative case γνῶσις ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosis

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In some sense, this life is quite depressing, when you think of it frankly.
I tend to avoid Frank nowadays ... life is too short to listen to his depressive outlook

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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Even the richest, most powerful, famous, and clever people, they all have to get old through time sooner or later, and must die in the end.
Yes, but that is part of life and part of the joy. Getting old isnt bad at all And death ? Well, you have to get used to that. White school is about acceptance not fear and denial.

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And no one knows where they are heading to, and will end up after the deaths.
Well, thank goodness there is still at least ONE great mystery left. Where you will end up ? Doesnt matter, that will take of itself. You can practice for it if you want, with some Tibetan or Egyptian system ... or whatever .

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And we all know that it will be also our own fate, and your off-springs', their off-springs .....
And all of life ... and eventually the planet ... and the Sun . Is all of life being inexorably sucked down into a back hole of inescapable gloom .... or is it all spiraling up to the centre of all to burst forth again in myriad and wonderful forms ?

It is up to you how you see it.

If you are still attached to this viewpoint - the 'trance of sorrow' - then Buddhism may well be for you.

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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Sometimes you feel, nothing in life is very meaningful from that respect,
Everything in life and every moment is meaningful , dont miss out on any of it. Otherwise, you might become like the man that takes a journey with wonderful scenery and experiences , but remains depressed throughout it as he knows that it will come to end at some stage.

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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
hence some of us seek for meanings of life, God (who could answer and save us to / from all these mysteries and tragedies in life) and seek immortality through Religion.
Yes, some of us do. My meaning for life is to live it, enjoy it, learn from it, experience it, DISSOLVE into it ......

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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
In this respect, the gnostics are quite realistic about life and the world, I would feel. They are not buttering up anything as if all is well and good, and everyone will live happily forever, and life is hunky dory affair no matter what like some other religions do.
Alright then ... its perfectly okay for you to choose 'black school' ... if it is really your choice , and not conditioning, guilt, family pressure, etc .

But dont misinterpret things ... I aint buttering up nuthin . Actually its 6:14 am, I have been up since 4:30 as I cant sleep due to the pain or do much of anything right now (this might reveal to some why I can rave so much here at times ) ... I have it every day now, tonight was worse than usual . I am not feeling good about life because I live on a pillow. Its a hard place to describe.

The idea behind Buddhism, really is to break free of the cycle of sorrow and come to joy ... or 'a samadhi ' , like the higher aspects of some Hindu systems . After years of right practice, it gradually comes . Yeah ... I know, talk is cheap. But more than once I have come very close to death and felt content and even "Well, I have had a good life, and this seems a pretty good place to die. " But I didnt . Later I realised that is what came up for me ; I was lying on the road. immobilized after a motorcycle smash, out alone on a country road, I couldnt move or drag myself off the road, I was just around a blind corner, any moment a car could come around the corner and pickup me and the motorcycle under it and grind us along the road together.

And I was looking out at the mountains and the sky and feeling 'This is a good place to die " ..... later, that really surprised me ( obviously a car didnt come, eventually I got feeling back to my body and dragged myself off the road.. a bit later I dragged the bike off too. Still another half hour before help came.

I havent seen real horror though, that may change my view. I have worked volunteer for A.I and helped relocate refugees and worked with torture victims ... horrible, I would never deem to tell them how they should deal with that. But some had a similar attitude, and they were surviving and shining .... but then again , they are not trapped in some camp somewhere .

If things get too painfull, then I will act to end iot, simple. I had a young beautiful friend that had to do that ... years back and it still wrenches my heart .... but that doesnt change my view. Part of her life was great ! Other parts were not so great , but I was able to help there a bit.

We do what we can .... even without 'Buddhist sorrow' we must show compassion.


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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
After the end of the ancient Greco Roman era, somehow the main stream religions failed to give answers to all these questions and problems of general public, hence some of them started looking into under world religion such as gnostics.

I think they did well up to the advent of Christianity ... which was firstly a gnostic Mithriac type of mystery religion. The the church got hold of it ... the hierarchy of priests.

Swinburne has an excellent piece on it

' Hymn to Proserpine (After the Proclamation in Rome of the Christian Faith) '

( " Wilt thou yet take all, Galilean? but these thou shalt not take,
The laurel, the palms and the pćan, the breasts of the nymphs in the brake; " )

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/174559


Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Rather than going with the priests and vicars and the establishments of the temples, churches and systems, they have seek to meet the God via more direct methods - ritual magics under the gnostic beliefs.

You need to be reunited with God, get enlightened with true knowledge, and be saved from all the troubles in this world, and gain immortality, they would say. So after all they are not all that negative bunch, as one might think.

Anti sex? - well some of them perhaps, but not all of them were, I believe.
No, there are both white and black school gnostics. This 'school' concept is about underlying philosophy, not whether if one was a gnostic or not.

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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Was it Crowley who termed it?
I dont know. It was from Crowley where I first read the terms.

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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post

If so, it sounds contradictory, because a few of his Magickal rituals originate from gnostics, I was told.
I dont understand your perception of contradiction here ?

He has classified some religions, systems of magic, philosophies and viewpoints according to their underlying concepts about life ... life affirming or life denying. He also recommends some Buddhist meditations .

How is it 'contradictory ' ?
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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
No, it means the opposite , a derivative of gnosis - knowledge ; Gnosis is the common Greek noun for knowledge (in the nominative case γνῶσις ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosis
I was meaning to say their fundamental belief is that "God is unknown". Thanks for your clarification.

http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm



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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post

It is up to you how you see it.

If you are still attached to this viewpoint - the 'trance of sorrow' - then Buddhism may well be for you.



Everything in life and every moment is meaningful , dont miss out on any of it. Otherwise, you might become like the man that takes a journey with wonderful scenery and experiences , but remains depressed throughout it as he knows that it will come to end at some stage.



Yes, some of us do. My meaning for life is to live it, enjoy it, learn from it, experience it, DISSOLVE into it ......



Alright then ... its perfectly okay for you to choose 'black school' ... if it is really your choice , and not conditioning, guilt, family pressure, etc .
I was speaking from the point of humanity in general, not from my own view.



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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post

No, there are both white and black school gnostics. This 'school' concept is about underlying philosophy, not whether if one was a gnostic or not.



I dont know. It was from Crowley where I first read the terms.



I dont understand your perception of contradiction here ?

He has classified some religions, systems of magic, philosophies and viewpoints according to their underlying concepts about life ... life affirming or life denying. He also recommends some Buddhist meditations .

How is it 'contradictory ' ?
It sounded like the classification was about which religion or beliefs are better than others, and I was wondering what's the point?

I was under impression that Crowley himself was open minded about all religions and tried anything in order to see the light and God, even Hinduism, Yoga, Meditation ....

Interesting post though. I am in the middle of preparing some stuff for work now, so just skimming the post now. I will be re-reading it when it is a bit quieter, and will get back with more of my points cheers.
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Everything in life and every moment is meaningful , dont miss out on any of it. Otherwise, you might become like the man that takes a journey with wonderful scenery and experiences , but remains depressed throughout it as he knows that it will come to end at some stage.



Yes, some of us do. My meaning for life is to live it, enjoy it, learn from it, experience it, DISSOLVE into it ......
Yes, I am with you on this one. Every moment in life is meaningful, and one needs to live with full joy and freedom. All life is precious, no matter whose life it is. All living thing is gift from God, that's what Buddhists believe too.


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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Alright then ... its perfectly okay for you to choose 'black school' ... if it is really your choice , and not conditioning, guilt, family pressure, etc .

But dont misinterpret things ... I aint buttering up nuthin . Actually its 6:14 am, I have been up since 4:30 as I cant sleep due to the pain or do much of anything right now (this might reveal to some why I can rave so much here at times ) ... I have it every day now, tonight was worse than usual . I am not feeling good about life because I live on a pillow. Its a hard place to describe.
I see you are in OZ land. It must be a beautiful place there, the warm Sun shine and blue sky, which we are a bit lack of here

I hope its not too bad. Feelings change, don't rely on them. I noticed your writings are sharp and deep, and you must be a prolific writer. It's cool.

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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
The idea behind Buddhism, really is to break free of the cycle of sorrow and come to joy ... or 'a samadhi ' , like the higher aspects of some Hindu systems . After years of right practice, it gradually comes . Yeah ... I know, talk is cheap. But more than once I have come very close to death and felt content and even "Well, I have had a good life, and this seems a pretty good place to die. " But I didnt . Later I realised that is what came up for me ; I was lying on the road. immobilized after a motorcycle smash, out alone on a country road, I couldnt move or drag myself off the road, I was just around a blind corner, any moment a car could come around the corner and pickup me and the motorcycle under it and grind us along the road together.

And I was looking out at the mountains and the sky and feeling 'This is a good place to die " ..... later, that really surprised me ( obviously a car didnt come, eventually I got feeling back to my body and dragged myself off the road.. a bit later I dragged the bike off too. Still another half hour before help came.

I havent seen real horror though, that may change my view. I have worked volunteer for A.I and helped relocate refugees and worked with torture victims ... horrible, I would never deem to tell them how they should deal with that. But some had a similar attitude, and they were surviving and shining .... but then again , they are not trapped in some camp somewhere .

If things get too painfull, then I will act to end iot, simple. I had a young beautiful friend that had to do that ... years back and it still wrenches my heart .... but that doesnt change my view. Part of her life was great ! Other parts were not so great , but I was able to help there a bit.

We do what we can .... even without 'Buddhist sorrow' we must show compassion.


I think people change after extreme experiences, some become stronger and wiser, others get traumatised, or get bitter. I could see you have become stronger, wiser and most of all, deeply spiritual.
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Thats how I see it . But there are 'white school gnostics' as well. I am probably one . . . .

When I am in a good mood
Hmmm.... Annoyingly charming comes more to mind.

I'm sorry to hear of the constant pain you seem to be having to endure. It must be exhausting.
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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Yes, I am with you on this one. Every moment in life is meaningful, and one needs to live with full joy and freedom. All life is precious, no matter whose life it is. All living thing is gift from God, that's what Buddhists believe too.




I see you are in OZ land. It must be a beautiful place there, the warm Sun shine and blue sky, which we are a bit lack of here
Indeed , no doubt it helps play a part in my joyous expression. But here is the thing, the town I live in ( well, the nearby town, I live in the county outside of the town ) is one of the best, naturally beautiful and clean environment. NO real giant problems. The people have access to good amenities, a near deserted beach, rivers, mountains forests most western entertainments and facilities. You can get unemployment money and free medical ( the operation I am waiting on will be free, as will my hospital stay and food etc .... where else in the world is it like that ?

yet the local pharmacy has the highest distribution per head of anti-depressant than any in the state . !

I cant help feeling something is missing for people !


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I hope its not too bad. Feelings change, don't rely on them. I noticed your writings are sharp and deep, and you must be a prolific writer. It's cool.
Yes, feelings do change, thats why I like to effect that which gives me feelings about things. One's attitude and demeanour can affect one's whole being and life.

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I think people change after extreme experiences, some become stronger and wiser, others get traumatised, or get bitter. I could see you have become stronger, wiser and most of all, deeply spiritual.
Yep. I went to a strict Catholic school, rebelled against it and got moved out. I tend not to take shit from anyone. A friend had the same experience, he stills seems furtive and affected adversely by it.

The last one ( about 4 years ago) , I was told I have about three months to live . Okay, I went through the process pretty quick and then popped out the other side. Wow, was life a mystical experience ... every blade of grass was like a glittering living jewel, every ant an amazing experience ... trippy man ! But then I didnt die .... it was a wrong diagnosis for a flare up of a 'sleeping condition' .... some brilliant doctor fixed it - it was something else ... I got another 20 years !

What do I do now ? I didnt really have time to think, before I knew it I was in a relationship with a 26 year old woman with 3 baby boys ! Okay 'Universe' ... whatever ...
< shrug >

Now I am a hermit ... talk about polarities !

I have no idea what happens next ?
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