Your opinions on Crowley?

Let those who are repulsed and scandalized by Crowley's "racism" do as they will... Opinions on Crowley are kind of like that ole saying, you know the one regarding opinions....everybody has one. Although this has been a keyword rich discussion, this "Thoth tarot" forum desperately needs a new topic.

Ross G Caldwell said:

In fact, I can't think of a single essay dedicated to a racist topic, or advocating genocide of any people.

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If you read the site I linked to, you'll see that there are numerous paragraphs scattered throughout his writing which make it clear that it was very much on his mind.

-- Lee

The point is that CROWLEY DOESN'T MATTER.

You can study his life, you can like him or hate him, but in the end, whatever racist and sexist opinions he had, do not end up in the philosophy of Thelema.
Racism and sexism are none of the roots or theoretical foundations of Thelema, and they are impossible to derive from it. Very much the contrary.

The collaborative effort of Crowley and Harris does not promote racism. There are Hebrew letters and black people in prominent places in the deck, and for 1945 England, this is foresight.

In fact Thelema is foresight, and Crowley's own logic led him to admit that "niggers and Jews" were IMAGINARY categories (Magick Without Tears, p. 444).

It is possible to love your father, without having to accept all of his opinions.

Crowley enunciated a philosophy that transcends him in every way. I imagine he would have liked that.

And as the article that you directed me to points out, many of Crowley's opinions about "blood libel" and other slanders against Jews were derived from his hero Sir Richard Burton. These are opinions frequently met with in literature up to the second World War, from people we respect in most other ways.

There is a saying "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater". Throwing out the Thoth Tarot and the philosophy of Thelema because you don't like Crowley, is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Don't do it. The baby is too important, and the baby isn't Aleister Crowley.

Ross I just had to comment, what an excellent post! I agree with your comments wholeheartedly. Regardless of Crowley's faults, Thelema and Thoth shall live on through the Aeon!

I have always had a 'problem' with the Thoth deck when doing a (rare) reading.
Yet I still have the deck. So I guess I've been heeding Ross's "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."

Crowley is interpretting something that is passing through him. So, we're going to get his 'essence' in the work. The good bits are going to be intermixed with the bad.

I quoted elsewhere Crowley himself saying (I'm paraphrasing badly!):
"There was a battle between God and the Devil for my soul and in the end a victor emerged. But I could not tell who it was... God or Devil."

How can you tell the 'baby' from the bathwater? How can you tell if you're being decieved?

What I have read thus far about Crowley (racism, sexism) is disturbing. But it also answers the questions as to why I feel appreshensive about the Thoth deck and why I still have it.
The 'why I still have it' is because it has a 'chaotic' power that I can feel, and I'm not in the habit of throwing this kind of power away! But, (and here's the contradiction) I don't want to be corrupted by it either.

I have a low opinion of Crowley's person, but love the Thoth... he was obviously a genius and have read much of his writings

Wagner and to some extent Mozart had very questionable personal qualities....

but the music "channeled" thru each is Divine.. listened to parsifal last night and the Sinfonia Concertante today.. the voice of God.. wonderous, noble

The Thoth , is the deepest deck for me, and very beautiful (especially my large Trimmed version) and always "honest" actually the most accurate of my dozens of decks.. maybe not divine but sublime

Your opinion on Crowly?

He sounds like the "bad boy" of the occult world. Because of a lot of negative things I'd read about him, it was a long time before I decided to check out the deck. I'm glad I did. I really like the deck, although I don't think I would've ever had the creator of it over for supper and a cozy evening.

I love the artwork. I'm not always comfortable reading with this deck, but that's just me. I use it anyway, occasionally. I think it's just the abstract quality of the artwork that throws me sometimes.

Aleister's naughty behaviour.

Frieda: Painting, easel set up in corner of loungeroom.
Aleister: Sitting in armchair - rerading, chuckles, reads more, laughs, reads more, laughs very loudly.
F: "So it's comedy now is it?"
A: Holds book up - 'Socrates'. Puts book down, walks over to Frieda, looks at painting Frieda is doing of Fool tarot card. "Excellent, that's exactly the effect I was thinking of." ... Thinks... "You know Frieda, I've been thinking. What is the best way for my work to survive? Even if I became a great diplomat and even helped to end a great war, I'd soon be forgotten. It's not the content of my writing ...it's something else, I've got to maintain the interest. I've got to reach as many people as possible and continue reaching people into the future."
F: Continues painting, "Oh, I wouldn't worry about that! Just keep on going the way you have been ... just sauce it up a bit."
A: "Pardon?"
F: "You know; the women, the drink, the drugs, fantastic feats, controversy, trips, disquises, boasting, kindness, cruelty, infinate compassion, your ... god damn ... class conciousness and the equality of Man ... your've already hit on the golden formula."
A: "Sorry, I'm not following you, which golden formula?"
F: "The golden formula, the method for achieving the aim that was the subject of your first question." She keeps painting.
A: "Eh?"
F: "The best way for your work to survive and for you not to be forgotten...' she bends down close to the painting to execute intricate detail "...Really Aleister! Pay attention, you are smoking far too much lately ... pay attention now. The formulae to work your will in this particular area is twofold; controversy and gossip, with those two you will survive an eternity."
A: "Ahaa!"
F: " You know people, as long as they have something to gossip about, to compare, to talk, to endlessly give opinion, to judge right and wrong ..." she stops painting, thinks ... " To judge right and wrong BOTH rightly and wrongly,"
she continues painting, "they'll be talking about you for years."
A: "By George! You've got it!."
F: Looks at painting, places pallette on edge of table and stands back to get larger view."Got what? The final touch on the painting or the answer to your dilema?"
A:'Everything Frieda! Your've got everything!" He grabs Frieda and hugs her, kisses her on the cheek and rushes out of the room.
F: Wipes cheek "Dont forget to make the press angry." She turns and notices he has knocked the pallette on to the painting and it is stuck on it, she pulls it off and notices there is a large splodge left behind near the crocodiles ear. "Well, that can just stay there then!"

ravenest said:

F: " You know people, as long as they have something to gossip about, to compare, to talk, to endlessly give opinion, to judge right and wrong ..." she stops painting, thinks ... " To judge right and wrong BOTH rightly and wrongly," she continues painting, "they'll be talking about you for years."

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The greatest magical working of all time.

No Crowley for me, thank you. I had the misfortune of reading one of his poems. I really don't want to be a disciple of a man whose mind and desires were that evil. I respect those who can get beyond him, to appreciate whatever good they find in his deck/works...but I am NOT one of those people.

Peace